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March 28 2024 4.37pm

The Hillsborough Verdict

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View punksnotdead's Profile punksnotdead Flag croydon 26 Apr 16 6.28pm Send a Private Message to punksnotdead Add punksnotdead as a friend

about time, 26 years of covering up and blaming innocent people who just went to watch a game of football, like we all do every Saturday, they treated all of us like scum in the 80's, we're all just lucky there weren't more tragedies. Well done to all the families for standing up to he establishment and uncovering their lies!

 

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 26 Apr 16 6.32pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

For me the tragedy was a combination of factors that all could have been avoided with hindsight and thankfully we have learned our lessons and football grounds are more safer today.


I think what came out - finally - in this inquest, was that the issues that occurred were all known, with tried and tested tactics to avoid those problems escalating. The police failed completely to follow their own successful blueprint, and tragedy ensued.

Hindsight has nothing to do with it.

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View kenbarr's Profile kenbarr Flag Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 26 Apr 16 8.11pm Send a Private Message to kenbarr Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add kenbarr as a friend

I compare the actions of Duckenfield and his senior commanders to those of Chief Super George Crawford and his staff at Selhurst Park. I can't imagine the gov ever letting events just happen while he watched in the control box. I can't imagine someone like SGT John Boldock (known as Ginger) just standing there while people were in distress wondering what to do. I certainly can't believe either of them or any other senior police official of South Norwood Nick lying about having taken a decision to open a gate the way Duckenfield did. He maintained that lie for 27 years and he was fully supported by his peers.

At our pre-season stewards meeting we were shown video of the Valley Parade fire, Heysel and Hillsborough. To the best of my memory, we were NEVER shown video of what happened outside the ground, including the lack of supervision at that tunnel. That video was NEVER made available to the club or South Norwood Police. The powers that be covered all that up because knowledge of it would have harmed the senior officials in Sheffield and the FA. It only came to light when the BBC got a hold of it years later. The innocent were blamed for over a quarter century for the acts of those who should have known better because acknowledging the truth would have been harmful to their careers. John Motson was fed a load of rubbish about drunken hooligans and he reported it, believing it genuine because "responsible people" told him it was. Imagine how angry he is over that. I know I sure am.

Not two years later there was a potential crush situation at Selhurst. The Tottenham team coach backed up to the player's tunnel before the end of the match in violation of his instructions. The exit gate to that end of the Main Stand was block. Both stewards and police instantly reacted and a potential disaster was averted. Imagine if a proper match cammander and experienced leaders with a well thought out plan were at Hillsborough instead of the hapless Duckenfield and his seemingly uninspired team of "leaders.". Imagine if SWFC had made the alterations to Leppings Lane that had been recommended for years instead of its chairman calling the threat of a crush was nonsense. Imagine responsible people taking responsibility for their actions. That's not hindsight. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but definitely not hindsight.

Edited by kenbarr (26 Apr 2016 8.15pm)

 


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View Cucking Funt's Profile Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 26 Apr 16 10.27pm Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

As an absolute minimum, Duckenfield must be prosecuted having been caught presiding over industrial scale lying. If he isn't, it just perpetuates the cover up.

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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View kevlee's Profile kevlee Flag born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 26 Apr 16 10.39pm Send a Private Message to kevlee Add kevlee as a friend

I cant believe there are people on here still blaming the fans. What will it take?
Duckenfield; Thatcher; The Sun; The Police Federation. Lying scum the lot of them. Your in good company.

 


Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 26 Apr 16 11.14pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by kevlee

I cant believe there are people on here still blaming the fans. What will it take?
Duckenfield; Thatcher; The Sun; The Police Federation. Lying scum the lot of them. Your in good company.

I don't think there are people blaming fans, just saying that events prior to this gave a picture of what can occur. This would've given the inexperienced Duckendale more reason to make knee jerk decisions. Nit the fans fault but his, and those who gave him the role.

By accounts it appears he was prepared for hooliganism before safe crowd control. The Home Office and Thatcher didn't know of his inexperience when visiting Hillsborough days after. I'm not saying the Police are not responsible because of fan reputation because they are. Well those in charge were responsible for all people on the day, young, old, fit, weak, whatever, they have a duty of care.

But saying there is no evidence that LFC were there without tickets, you cannot prove that either way but they can say this is not the reason it happened. The dozen reasons are why it happened.

Lots of clubs were trying to get in ticketless in those days. I've just read on the BBS Spurs had the same problem in the LLEnd in 1981 vs Wolves and people suffered broken arms and legs. Spurs used to try entry without tickets. They also had a crush outside the Wembley gate in 1987. Those who got in passed their unused tickets to those who didn't have tickets. Should the fans be doing this? No. Did the Sheffield Police or Wembley correct their failings with stadia and organising? No.

It was a minority doing it and if policed and organised properly would never have resulted in injury whatsoever. Reducing capacity would've been a start years before.

I do not blame LFC fans then. It could've been anyone. Us the year after if in small pens rather than big terraces like The Holte End or The Stretford End.

If there were ticketless fans then there should've been measures dealing with it. But I have trouble understanding LFC fans who climb over walls to add to full capacity now. It happened in the 3-3 game. Climbing over the WH End walls to get in their away end or anywhere. Again, nobody stewarding or policing where needed.

 


COYP

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View kenbarr's Profile kenbarr Flag Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 26 Apr 16 11.28pm Send a Private Message to kenbarr Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add kenbarr as a friend

Thatcher was trying to use Hillsborough to get a national ID Card scheme. It took the Taylor Report to scupper that. She was all set to use the tragedy to advance her agenda. The local MP at that time, a Tory, was telling anyone who would listen it was down to drunken hooligans who even tried to urinate on police and ambulance workers. That lie was exposed in the 2012 Independent Inquiry.

When I came to Britain in 1989, cash turnstiles were a shock to me. We never had that at any major sporting ground in the US. The semi was "all-ticket," so that wasn't a factor. As many have posted here, including Rudi, Cucking and more, today is the day that the real reasons for the deaths of the 96 were cemented into the law. There was a failure to uphold a duty of care. The police hierarchy failed to properly plan prior to the match, failed to brief their subordinate constables adequately enough and failed to react as the situation worsened. The commander lied about an order he issued. Sheffield Wednesday failed to provide a safe facility for the match. They failed to heed warnings that the facility had serious problems that needed to be addressed. They failed to train their employees, particularly match day stewards, and failed to place them at critical safety positions. They also failed to obtain a current safety certificate, which should have disqualified them from hosting a match of the magnitude of a FA Cup semi final. That, as I see it, is the verdict of the jury.

 


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View kenbarr's Profile kenbarr Flag Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 26 Apr 16 11.58pm Send a Private Message to kenbarr Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add kenbarr as a friend

The following links are the official transcripts for today's verdicts. The actual verdict and the recording of individual cause and times of death are at this link:

[Link]

The signing of the records of inquest for each of the 96 is here. Only the seven jurors who voted for "unlawful killing" were permitted to sign.

[Link]

The next link is for the General Questionnaire for the Jury's Determination. This document contains the answers to the 14 Questions with reasons for finding. The criteria for Question 6, Unlawful Killing, are the last two pages.

[Link]

The last link is for the Individual Questionnaires For the Jury's Determination. This gives the official medical cause and time of death for each victim.

[Link]

All documents, trial transcripts, witness statements and rulings by HM Coronor Lord Justice Goldring are available at:

[Link]

 


Divorced...And LOVING it!
VJRAM Rev.
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Trevor Francis, International PRAT

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View OldFella's Profile OldFella Flag London 27 Apr 16 12.48am Send a Private Message to OldFella Add OldFella as a friend

Originally posted by kenbarr

Thatcher was trying to use Hillsborough to get a national ID Card scheme. It took the Taylor Report to scupper that. She was all set to use the tragedy to advance her agenda. The local MP at that time, a Tory, was telling anyone who would listen it was down to drunken hooligans who even tried to urinate on police and ambulance workers. That lie was exposed in the 2012 Independent Inquiry.

When I came to Britain in 1989, cash turnstiles were a shock to me. We never had that at any major sporting ground in the US. The semi was "all-ticket," so that wasn't a factor. As many have posted here, including Rudi, Cucking and more, today is the day that the real reasons for the deaths of the 96 were cemented into the law. There was a failure to uphold a duty of care. The police hierarchy failed to properly plan prior to the match, failed to brief their subordinate constables adequately enough and failed to react as the situation worsened. The commander lied about an order he issued. Sheffield Wednesday failed to provide a safe facility for the match. They failed to heed warnings that the facility had serious problems that needed to be addressed. They failed to train their employees, particularly match day stewards, and failed to place them at critical safety positions. They also failed to obtain a current safety certificate, which should have disqualified them from hosting a match of the magnitude of a FA Cup semi final. That, as I see it, is the verdict of the jury.

You are one seriously opinionated man. Just saying...

 


Jackson.. Wan Bissaka.... Sansom.. Nicholas.. Cannon.. Guehi.... Zaha... Thomas.. Byrne... Holton.. Rogers.. that should do it..

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View Seth's Profile Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 27 Apr 16 1.28am Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Originally posted by OldFella

You are one seriously opinionated man. Just saying...

He's entitled to it, and I fully concur with him.

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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View Sportyteacher's Profile Sportyteacher Flag London 27 Apr 16 6.59am Send a Private Message to Sportyteacher Add Sportyteacher as a friend

Originally posted by kenbarr

[Link]

Finally, after 27 years, those responsible for the unnecessary deaths of 96 people are being called to book. By a 7-2 vote, the jury concluded that these deaths were the result of criminal negligence (unlawful killing) due to the failure of police command to adequately plan and as well as opening the exit gate which is blamed as the proximate cause of the crush. Sheffield Wednesday is being held responsible for their share in failing to insure safety. I wish the FA's decision to choose Hillsborough for that match even though they knew, or should have known, that there were crushes at several semi finals held there going back to 1981. the supporters were held blameless (Question 7). Can we now acknowledge that this was not due to drunkeness or hooliganism. This was down to incompetence rising to a criminal level by people responsible for one thing, safety. That an incompetent police commander failed to do his duty. That an English Football Club, whose chairman was quoted as saying any threat of a life threatening crush was "nonsense" put his wallet ahead of ticket buying customers. That things we take for granted at Selhurst Park, competent policing, dedicated turnstiles for terrace sections, as they were when the Holmesdale was a three section terrace, didn't exist at Hillsborough with fatal consequences.

Very well written, Kenbarr.

I'd like to hope that everyday conscientious folk will stop buying The Sun as protest for their heinous, shoddy, arrogant treatment of Liverpool fans, especially under the editorship of Kelvin Mackenzie. And The Sun's response to yesterday's legal landmark = relegated to pp 8-9.

 

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View The Sash's Profile The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 27 Apr 16 8.10am Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

I don't think there are people blaming fans, just saying that events prior to this gave a picture of what can occur. This would've given the inexperienced Duckendale more reason to make knee jerk decisions. Nit the fans fault but his, and those who gave him the role.

By accounts it appears he was prepared for hooliganism before safe crowd control. The Home Office and Thatcher didn't know of his inexperience when visiting Hillsborough days after. I'm not saying the Police are not responsible because of fan reputation because they are. Well those in charge were responsible for all people on the day, young, old, fit, weak, whatever, they have a duty of care.

But saying there is no evidence that LFC were there without tickets, you cannot prove that either way but they can say this is not the reason it happened. The dozen reasons are why it happened.

Lots of clubs were trying to get in ticketless in those days. I've just read on the BBS Spurs had the same problem in the LLEnd in 1981 vs Wolves and people suffered broken arms and legs. Spurs used to try entry without tickets. They also had a crush outside the Wembley gate in 1987. Those who got in passed their unused tickets to those who didn't have tickets. Should the fans be doing this? No. Did the Sheffield Police or Wembley correct their failings with stadia and organising? No.

It was a minority doing it and if policed and organised properly would never have resulted in injury whatsoever. Reducing capacity would've been a start years before.

I do not blame LFC fans then. It could've been anyone. Us the year after if in small pens rather than big terraces like The Holte End or The Stretford End.

If there were ticketless fans then there should've been measures dealing with it. But I have trouble understanding LFC fans who climb over walls to add to full capacity now. It happened in the 3-3 game. Climbing over the WH End walls to get in their away end or anywhere. Again, nobody stewarding or policing where needed.

We had a similar experience at WHL in the cup which for anyone who was there was not a good experience - pens full to absolute bursting point before the police finally saw something wasn't right and opened up another to relieve the crushing - for anyone attending games in the 80's, Hillsborough has a feel of 'there but for the grace of god' about it.

As for Hillsbrough - its just a litany of mistakes and errors which when added together caused the death of 96 people - I know from a Forest fan who was there that day that mobs of Liverpool fans without tickets tried to get in to the Forest end at one point so it did happen (and as you say continues to do so) and probably gives a pointer to the police actions on the day in terms of attitude and crowd control.

To suggest that there wasn't a wide spread attempt for ticketless fans to get in stretches incredulity. It happened and most big games in the 80's for mostclubs and certainly was something Liverpool fans excelled in, both following their club and at England away games which I personally witnessed

All said and done it is simply another factor that lead to the deaths of 96 people but alongside Duckenfield, Thatcher, McKenzie et al there should be some people alive today who attended that game who need to have a look at themselves as well for the possibly small part they played in adding to the days event.

Edited by The Sash (27 Apr 2016 8.14am)

 


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