The Hillsborough Verdict
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 Seth  On a pale blue dot 28 Apr 16 1.05am |
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Originally posted by OldFella
"Conflated".. I'm still laughing at that... pompous tw*t I think you did read mine? I'm not a troll, Seth. I'm just highly amused by your constant Corbynista and right on nonsense!! So you thought you'd follow me round the boards trolling all my posts? Retirement appears to have addled your brain. Why not have a nice cup of cocoa and get some rest, there's a love.
"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" |
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| Hoof Hearted 28 Apr 16 12.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Seth
No-one is saying that none of the fans had had a drink, or that everyone had a ticket. That isn't the point and would be ridiculous. The point is the police should've had a plan to deal with it, as it happened often at that time, and the fact they didn't, and the other major mistakes they made, was the main cause of the disaster. Your point about the jury is deeply offensive, sexist, and frankly contemptible. Where is your proof that having a majority female jury had any bearing whatsoever on the verdict, or that they would somehow be more likely to believe one view or another, or that it was "arranged" that way? It would be illegal to "arrange" a jury in that way and I don't believe you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this view. As for Duckenfield, of course he should be held accountable. He has admitted he caused the deaths, so should face the consequences. Broken or not, he shouldn't be allowed to get away with 96 deaths which, as he has admitted, were his fault. Your response is a bit OTT Seth, I'm only expressing an opinion that many others on this site (and in the wider public) also hold. I thought we were above the over reaction stage with our debating skills? It is not sexist to express an opinion that women are in the main softer souls than men and therefore easier to tug on their heart strings than a man's who might look more cynically at events and challenge stuff that they have more experience of such as being involved in 80's football matches with the drinking culture, violence, storming of turnstiles. That inquiry gives the impression that the Liverpool fans waited patiently outside the ground without a murmur and suddenly Duckenfield has a brain wave of his own to open the gates without any real reason to do so. I am pleased that the previous lies about the fans behaviour has been proven wrong, but now they've thrown the baby out with the bath water and given them all a blanket absolving of any blame. Sorry Seth, but I aint buying it. Edited by Hoof Hearted (28 Apr 2016 12.05pm)
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 28 Apr 16 12.24pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Your response is a bit OTT Seth, I'm only expressing an opinion that many others on this site (and in the wider public) also hold. I thought we were above the over reaction stage with our debating skills? It is not sexist to express an opinion that women are in the main softer souls than men and therefore easier to tug on their heart strings than a man's who might look more cynically at events and challenge stuff that they have more experience of such as being involved in 80's football matches with the drinking culture, violence, storming of turnstiles. That inquiry gives the impression that the Liverpool fans waited patiently outside the ground without a murmur and suddenly Duckenfield has a brain wave of his own to open the gates without any real reason to do so. I am pleased that the previous lies about the fans behaviour has been proven wrong, but now they've thrown the baby out with the bath water and given them all a blanket absolving of any blame. Sorry Seth, but I aint buying it. Edited by Hoof Hearted (28 Apr 2016 12.05pm) Ok Hoof I'm not going to get into this with you because we know each other's views and I don't want to fall out with you. I stand by what I've said on this thread, including about what you claim to be non-sexist comments, and I presume you do too. We'll leave it there while things are still friendly between us.
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| Hoof Hearted 28 Apr 16 12.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Seth
Ok Hoof I'm not going to get into this with you because we know each other's views and I don't want to fall out with you. I stand by what I've said on this thread, including about what you claim to be non-sexist comments, and I presume you do too. We'll leave it there while things are still friendly between us. Thanks Darth Eagle. I like our friendship and respect your views even when they conflict directly with mine. RIP The 96.
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 Michaelawt85  Bexley 28 Apr 16 1.10pm |
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I was only 3 at the time of Hillsborough so have no recollection of it whatsoever or the articles printed in the sun at the time, the lies told or any experience of all standing terraces. What I do know from talking to other people is that it was quite common back then to turn up ticketless and bung the guy on the door a couple of quid for him to let you in. In all honesty most people would do that if they couldn't get a ticket through normal channels and knew there was a high chance of being admitted into the ground. The idea that no one was ticketless , no one was drunk, no one was being raucous and so on is farcical given the number of people at that game. Not saying it made any difference to what went on that day as I don't think it would have prevented the tragedy but it's naive to think extra people without tickets being allowed through helped the situation. Given the fact it's now been publically acknowledged and accepted the police and authorities lied and tried to cover their arses means no one is going to dare try and lay any blame at the fans. It's not politically correct, socially acceptable or very decent to blame people for events when some of them may be dead and unable to defend themselves. That's life I'm afraid. I have read some of the survivors accounts of what happened that day and what they saw and heard. The fact police pitch side right by the fences were shouting at them to get off the pitch is absolutely heartbreaking. They must have realised people were in serious trouble and at the very least being hurt. My heart absolutely aches for them. Maybe it's the fact this verdict has come just after attending an fa cup semi final myself buT the idea of waking up so excited for a game and coming home with members of my family or friends dead is horrendous. Another point which no one has really mentioned and at the risk of offending people I feel the police believed they could get away with these lies to the wider public due to the fact it's football. Lots of people look down their nose at football, being a grass roots, working class sport. Some people have that association if football fans going for the piss up, the fight, being hooligans. They are looked down on by certain sections and throw in the fact that Liverpool is a very working class and in parts rough and deprived area I hate to say it but the establishment thought they were nothing. Upmost admiration and respect to the families and all those who have fought for this. My thoughts go to those who walked out alive and have had to live with what they saw and heard that day
When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC |
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 28 Apr 16 2.36pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Thanks Darth Eagle. I like our friendship and respect your views even when they conflict directly with mine. RIP The 96. No worries old chap, I do too. RIP indeed, we can definitely agree on that.
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 28 Apr 16 2.45pm |
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Originally posted by Michaelawt85
I was only 3 at the time of Hillsborough so have no recollection of it whatsoever or the articles printed in the sun at the time, the lies told or any experience of all standing terraces. What I do know from talking to other people is that it was quite common back then to turn up ticketless and bung the guy on the door a couple of quid for him to let you in. In all honesty most people would do that if they couldn't get a ticket through normal channels and knew there was a high chance of being admitted into the ground. The idea that no one was ticketless , no one was drunk, no one was being raucous and so on is farcical given the number of people at that game. Not saying it made any difference to what went on that day as I don't think it would have prevented the tragedy but it's naive to think extra people without tickets being allowed through helped the situation. Given the fact it's now been publically acknowledged and accepted the police and authorities lied and tried to cover their arses means no one is going to dare try and lay any blame at the fans. It's not politically correct, socially acceptable or very decent to blame people for events when some of them may be dead and unable to defend themselves. That's life I'm afraid. I have read some of the survivors accounts of what happened that day and what they saw and heard. The fact police pitch side right by the fences were shouting at them to get off the pitch is absolutely heartbreaking. They must have realised people were in serious trouble and at the very least being hurt. My heart absolutely aches for them. Maybe it's the fact this verdict has come just after attending an fa cup semi final myself buT the idea of waking up so excited for a game and coming home with members of my family or friends dead is horrendous. Another point which no one has really mentioned and at the risk of offending people I feel the police believed they could get away with these lies to the wider public due to the fact it's football. Lots of people look down their nose at football, being a grass roots, working class sport. Some people have that association if football fans going for the piss up, the fight, being hooligans. They are looked down on by certain sections and throw in the fact that Liverpool is a very working class and in parts rough and deprived area I hate to say it but the establishment thought they were nothing. Upmost admiration and respect to the families and all those who have fought for this. My thoughts go to those who walked out alive and have had to live with what they saw and heard that day That's a very important point and one I 100% agree with. The context at that time was that football fans were seen as hooligans & scum and many of us can remember being treated like dirt by the authorities, and herded like cattle into pens just like the ones on Leppings Lane. The fans were seen as an easy target to blame, especially LFC after Heysel & other incidents. There's a wider political context too. Thatcher was at war with the miners and other groups at that time, and Liverpool was a hotbed of militancy and rebellion against her government ("the enemy within" ). Andy Burnham yesterday drew a comparison with what happened at Orgreave and how S. Yorkshire police used the same tactics of smears, lies and cover-ups with Hillsborough as they did against the striking miners. We should all be grateful that the Hillsborough campaigners have been so tenacious and determined to uncover the truth, because it benefits us all that the authorities may be more careful about attempting this kind of cover-up in future. Edited by Seth (28 Apr 2016 2.46pm)
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| sxp55 South Norwood 28 Apr 16 2.47pm |
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I just hope the many fans that turned up without tickets and forced their way in to create the situation don't feel exonerated by the verdict.
@sxp55555 |
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| Seth On a pale blue dot 28 Apr 16 3.44pm |
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Originally posted by sxp55
I just hope the many fans that turned up without tickets and forced their way in to create the situation don't feel exonerated by the verdict. Have you not been paying attention to any of the coverage of the inquest's findings? Just in case you haven't, the jury concluded that fans' behaviour did not have any bearing at all on the disaster. So the fans should feel exonerated because it's been proved not to have been their fault.
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Y Ddraig Goch  In The Crowd 28 Apr 16 3.56pm |
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Originally posted by Seth
That's a very important point and one I 100% agree with. The context at that time was that football fans were seen as hooligans & scum and many of us can remember being treated like dirt by the authorities, and herded like cattle into pens just like the ones on Leppings Lane. The fans were seen as an easy target to blame, especially LFC after Heysel & other incidents. There's a wider political context too. Thatcher was at war with the miners and other groups at that time, and Liverpool was a hotbed of militancy and rebellion against her government ("the enemy within" ). Andy Burnham yesterday drew a comparison with what happened at Orgreave and how S. Yorkshire police used the same tactics of smears, lies and cover-ups with Hillsborough as they did against the striking miners. We should all be grateful that the Hillsborough campaigners have been so tenacious and determined to uncover the truth, because it benefits us all that the authorities may be more careful about attempting this kind of cover-up in future. Edited by Seth (28 Apr 2016 2.46pm) I went to a lot of Liverpool games in the 80s. My friends tended to support either Liverpool or Manure and there was a reason why football fans were treated the way they were. It was a god awful experience with a lot of trouble. Not just firms but anyone who was the oppo was a fair target. That does not exonerate the police from what happened but I do think some people are looking back at the 80s using a rather wonky prism.
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| sxp55 South Norwood 28 Apr 16 4.19pm |
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Originally posted by Seth
Have you not been paying attention to any of the coverage of the inquest's findings? Just in case you haven't, the jury concluded that fans' behaviour did not have any bearing at all on the disaster. So the fans should feel exonerated because it's been proved not to have been their fault. Come on now. You cannot honestly believe that all those ticketless fans (witnessed) had no bearing on what happened.
@sxp55555 |
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| lankygit Lincoln 28 Apr 16 4.41pm |
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Originally posted by sxp55
Come on now. You cannot honestly believe that all those ticketless fans (witnessed) had no bearing on what happened. Well the inquest jury, having seen all the available evidence, came to that conclusion.
Is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour? [Link] |
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