Wales and EU Vote
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| Hoof Hearted 04 Jul 16 10.19am | |
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Originally posted by SloveniaDave
whilst being a committed remainer, there is no question that the European Commission has been allowed to increase their power and influence through the Committee of the Regions and the allocation of regional funds. The case for it is that it redistributes revenue to the regions in most need but the political idea behind it is to undermine the supremacy of the nation state by making certain parts of certain countries more dependent upon, and more loyal to, Brussels rather than their own country. This is one area where the members of the EU need to decide whether to rein in the Commission or not as the issue is being faced by almost every Member State. Very honest and fair of you to admit that Dave.
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 Rudi Hedman  Caterham 04 Jul 16 10.27am |
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Nation Divided on Sky News tonight at 9pm. I think the presenter has gone round the country speaking to lots of different groups mentioned since the vote. Should be better than Sky's 'The Pledge' with Nick Ferrari leading the panel. I saw 10 mins of it last night. Julie Sarpong? wtf? What an amateur programme.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jul 16 12.28pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
First I didn't say the Welsh were stupid, I implied it looked a stupid decision from the outside. It suggests that the Welsh don't recognise the benefits they have been receiving from the EU. No doubt you have read the 18th Brumaire. Not every decision made by the populace is in fact in its interests. Every decision made by the populace is in the interest of the nation, by default. The nation has no basis of existence other than its population, and no independent existence outside of their concepts. A bad decision, is still the right decision, in a democracy, if it has the mandate of the people and does not violate their legal rights.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jul 16 12.36pm |
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Originally posted by johnno42000
I can only give anecdotal evidence but what I heard on the train seemed to be people who didn't want to leave but were voting leave due to things like NHS waiting times, housing problems, jobs etc. I wonder if, in some cases, they voted leave as a bit of a protest against the Government? I should add there are hardly any immigrants where I live in the Rhondda Valley. Edited by johnno42000 (25 Jun 2016 8.41pm) Edited by johnno42000 (25 Jun 2016 8.42pm) Yes, but there would be people voting remain on similarly facile and stupid grounds - That's the nature of democracy. After all, we, the British People, are responsible for these rather stupid people on either side of the debate. It might be a damning indictment of the UK education system. Of course it is a good argument as to the limitations and failures of democracy, but that's a different argument. I think a lot of people have a rather rosy view of the British Public as being anything other than a series of c**ts. Rule 101 of my philosophy in life, everyone is a c**t, its just a question of what type of a c**t they are, and how much of a c**t they are.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Slimey Toad  Karsiyaka, North Cyprus 04 Jul 16 12.56pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Nation Divided on Sky News tonight at 9pm. I think the presenter has gone round the country speaking to lots of different groups mentioned since the vote. Should be better than Sky's 'The Pledge' with Nick Ferrari leading the panel. I saw 10 mins of it last night. Julie Sarpong? wtf? What an amateur programme. Rachel Johnson is a very presentable bit of posh 50 something skirt.
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| Mapletree Croydon 04 Jul 16 1.13pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Every decision made by the populace is in the interest of the nation, by default. The nation has no basis of existence other than its population, and no independent existence outside of their concepts. A bad decision, is still the right decision, in a democracy, if it has the mandate of the people and does not violate their legal rights. Only history will tell whether it is in the BEST interests of the nation. And that was my point, which I am sure you understood. You didn't reply to my point about the 18th Brumaire. People can be manipulated to do things that are not in their BEST interests.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jul 16 1.38pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Only history will tell whether it is in the BEST interests of the nation. And that was my point, which I am sure you understood. I disagree. A nation is the people, and they can only exist in the present here and now. What future generations will make of something, is largely irrelevant. Hindsight is a gift no one possesses, and even in the future, people will argue about whether it was right or not. The interests of the nation, only exist within the collective social construct of national interests of the present population. History can no more judge whether something is 'in its interest' than the nation can - It would still only be the decision of the population at that time. It could then change again 10 years after that, or 20. Originally posted by Mapletree
You didn't reply to my point about the 18th Brumaire. People can be manipulated to do things that are not in their BEST interests. Of course they can, its at the very heart of what it means to be human. Everyone, everywhere, with most of their social interactions, is involved in somekind of manipulation. There is no neutrality, even in how we speak, we define our 'socio-political' agenda and message. Everyone, everywhere, at every time, engages or has engaged in manipulation and socially engineering. Its the method by which society and civilisation function, grow and change. Even in this exchange, we're trying to manipulate one another. Language is the propaganda of the self. The mistake most people make is to presume that anyone is exempt from this and to believe in 'progress'. The future will be different to the past, and the present, as will the people in it, and they are no more capable of judging us, than we are them.
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| Mapletree Croydon 04 Jul 16 3.54pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Of course they can, its at the very heart of what it means to be human. Everyone, everywhere, with most of their social interactions, is involved in somekind of manipulation. There is no neutrality, even in how we speak, we define our 'socio-political' agenda and message. Everyone, everywhere, at every time, engages or has engaged in manipulation and socially engineering. Its the method by which society and civilisation function, grow and change. Even in this exchange, we're trying to manipulate one another. Language is the propaganda of the self. The mistake most people make is to presume that anyone is exempt from this and to believe in 'progress'. The future will be different to the past, and the present, as will the people in it, and they are no more capable of judging us, than we are them. Whether they made the 'right' decision in this case seems to me to be whether their intended outcome will be achieved through their decision. If it does they made the right decision, if it doesn't they made the wrong decision. So history will show as when they reflect on the eventual outcome they can judge their own decisions. Hindsight is a gift everyone possesses, some being better at it than others. Sadly, foresight is not.
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| silvertop Portishead 04 Jul 16 4.09pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yes, but there would be people voting remain on similarly facile and stupid grounds - That's the nature of democracy. After all, we, the British People, are responsible for these rather stupid people on either side of the debate. It might be a damning indictment of the UK education system. Of course it is a good argument as to the limitations and failures of democracy, but that's a different argument. I think a lot of people have a rather rosy view of the British Public as being anything other than a series of c**ts. Rule 101 of my philosophy in life, everyone is a c**t, its just a question of what type of a c**t they are, and how much of a c**t they are. And where would you fall in this taxonomy?
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jul 16 4.25pm |
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Originally posted by silvertop
And where would you fall in this taxonomy? I regard my self as something of a c**t, but not a nasty c**t. Whilst I'd regard myself as a bit of a clever c**t as well, but a generous and well meaning c**t in the most.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jul 16 4.33pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Whether they made the 'right' decision in this case seems to me to be whether their intended outcome will be achieved through their decision. If it does they made the right decision, if it doesn't they made the wrong decision. So history will show as when they reflect on the eventual outcome they can judge their own decisions. Hindsight is a gift everyone possesses, some being better at it than others. Sadly, foresight is not. I don't think there is a right or a wrong decision, or that ultimately that the outcome of the decision will bear any real impact on the eventual future, whether in the EU or not, the UK will proceed to remain on a track to becoming a country in which corporate influence and power, exceeds the influence and power of state or its citizens. All that leaving the EU will achieve, without a massive change of political reality in the UK, is that we'll be more influenced by Corporate entities outside the EU, than those which exert influence within the EU. Ultimately, people will blame the referendum, like Thatcher, more by how it affected them, than actually any real appraisal of the country or the consequences - and they'll still argue that their decision was right irrespective of the consequences - or shift the blame onto others. Unless it totally goes tits to the wall of course. There were a lot of German people of a specific generation that still regard themselves as blameless. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge still has massive support in parts of the country - And they murdered half the adult population. People are no better in hindsight, that their foresight, they're just create different arguments. I suspect plenty of Nazi's died unrepentant, and those that didn't, blamed everyone other than their own decision.
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| Mapletree Croydon 04 Jul 16 4.39pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't think there is a right or a wrong decision, or that ultimately that the outcome of the decision will bear any real impact on the eventual future, whether in the EU or not, the UK will proceed to remain on a track to becoming a country in which corporate influence and power, exceeds the influence and power of state or its citizens. All that leaving the EU will achieve, without a massive change of political reality in the UK, is that we'll be more influenced by Corporate entities outside the EU, than those which exert influence within the EU. Ultimately, people will blame the referendum, like Thatcher, more by how it affected them, than actually any real appraisal of the country or the consequences - and they'll still argue that their decision was right irrespective of the consequences - or shift the blame onto others. Unless it totally goes tits to the wall of course. There were a lot of German people of a specific generation that still regard themselves as blameless. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge still has massive support in parts of the country - And they murdered half the adult population. People are no better in hindsight, that their foresight, they're just create different arguments. I suspect plenty of Nazi's died unrepentant, and those that didn't, blamed everyone other than their own decision. Well, if no decision will actually make a difference and none is better than another I guess we can get rid of the Treasury and Parliament then, which would save us from all this distraction.
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