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jamiemartin721  Reading 20 Jul 16 9.31am |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I'm sorry but we are in 2016 and what has gone before is not important. Things have changed across Europe. The irony of your position is that you say that nothing is sacred in terms of our principles as a Western nation and that claiming so is extremism and dealing in absolutes and then in the next breath you say that we can change our laws to pander to someone else's sacred beliefs. Yes a few million Britons are Muslim and most are just getting on with life but they are in a Western country and in a tiny minority. Why on earth should we change our laws simply because the extremist branch of their religion are systematically attacking our citizens? That would be appeasement plain and simple. That, however well intentioned, would be a very grave error and one that the vast majority of British people would reject. They would see such a move for what it is. We must think about the future of Britain and how our decisions now will impact on it. We failed to do so in the past. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (19 Jul 2016 7.00pm) I'm not advocating compromising with the extremists, but with the inclusion and social integration of the 99% unhostile every day, run of the mill, bloke next door Muslim and addressing their political issues, concerns and experiences. Extremists like IS, have made their choice. But its important to remember that in fighting the threat of the Provisional IRA, broadly targeting Republicans and Catholics and effectively treating them as 'the same' only created greater influence and power for the IRA.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 20 Jul 16 10.43am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I'm not advocating compromising with the extremists, but with the inclusion and social integration of the 99% unhostile every day, run of the mill, bloke next door Muslim and addressing their political issues, concerns and experiences. Extremists like IS, have made their choice. But its important to remember that in fighting the threat of the Provisional IRA, broadly targeting Republicans and Catholics and effectively treating them as 'the same' only created greater influence and power for the IRA. What you are proposing is changing British law to pander to religious nonsense. The guilt or innocence of Muslims with regard to terrorism is secondary.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 20 Jul 16 11.25am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
No, but then most Muslims aren't fighting in a war. Whilst not all Germans were Nazis, plenty of Germans fought in the war, for their government, who were Nazis and carried out their orders. I don't think the analogy holds, given the number of Muslims that are engaged in the war against IS in Syria and Islamic extremists (who generally are fighting against other Muslims). Is that a fact ? well I suggest you visit Afghan, Western Africa, Iran, Iraq, the Balkans, basically everywhere were the Muslim faith is the ruling religion there is trouble,(bar the kingdom of saudi and we all know why that it.) there is no getting away from it Jamie, as unpalatable as it may be for some, the religion of Islam has no place in a modern progressive society that tolerates all.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| legaleagle 20 Jul 16 11.39am |
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Let's take your example of the Balkans at face value Danny. Where precisely is it kicking off there now and why? When it did all kick off ,was it(1) because of muslims? or (2) because of gutter carve up power games by the Serbian nationalists (Orthadox Christians) and the Croatian nationalists (Catholics) which started things off so the muslim community ended up having to defend itself from massacres such as Srebrenica and radicalising much of that community . If that's not enough for you,look up the previous round of inter religious/ethnic killings in the region in 1941-45 and look up the mass killings Jasenovac concentration camp.Was it run by (1) muslims or (2) Croatian fascists in alliance with the local Catholic church? There is plainly a problem we face from sulafist jihadi ideology...but to be too simplistic can be worse than pretending the issue doesn't exist ... In terms of N Ireland,where arguably we could have dealt with things a lot better in say 1968-75 in winning over the hears and minds of the wider Catholic community rather than letting the Provos make so many inroads. Our armed forces gained a reputation for being good at counter insurgency in Malaya in the 1950's (a reputation we lived off until Iraq and Afghanistan) precisely because "hearts and minds" was recognised as very important in relation to the peaceful majority of an ethnic group from within which a violent extreme had taken up arms.A lesson the Americans so ignored in Vietnam. We forget those lessons/reminders now at our peril. Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2016 11.39am)
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| Stuk Top half 20 Jul 16 11.55am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
IS and their like are to Islam what the Klan is to Christianity. Borrowed from the West Wing 9/11 episode. This is a crap analogy. The KKK don't immigrate to Arabic countries and then kill at random. They're f***ing idiots but the comparison isn't valid.
Optimistic as ever |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 20 Jul 16 12.04pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Let's take your example of the Balkans at face value Danny. Where precisely is it kicking off there now and why? When it did all kick off ,was it(1) because of muslims? or (2) because of gutter carve up power games by the Serbian nationalists (Orthadox Christians) and the Croatian nationalists (Catholics) which started things off so the muslim community ended up having to defend itself from massacres such as Srebrenica and radicalising much of that community . If that's not enough for you,look up the previous round of inter religious/ethnic killings in the region in 1941-45 and look up the mass killings Jasenovac concentration camp.Was it run by (1) muslims or (2) Croatian fascists in alliance with the local Catholic church? There is plainly a problem we face from sulafist jihadi ideology...but to be too simplistic can be worse than pretending the issue doesn't exist ... In terms of N Ireland,where arguably we could have dealt with things a lot better in say 1968-75 in winning over the hears and minds of the wider Catholic community rather than letting the Provos make so many inroads. Our armed forces gained a reputation for being good at counter insurgency in Malaya in the 1950's (a reputation we lived off until Iraq and Afghanistan) precisely because "hearts and minds" was recognised as very important in relation to the peaceful majority of an ethnic group from within which a violent extreme had taken up arms.A lesson the Americans so ignored in Vietnam. We forget those lessons/reminders now at our peril. Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2016 11.39am) I would suggest that there are many different lessons we could learn from history and which ones we choose to learn say something about us.
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| legaleagle 20 Jul 16 12.11pm |
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Well,ignoring the lessons of former Yugoslavia,counter-insurgency strategy in the former British Empire, and N Ireland would certainly say something about the person ignoring them,I can agree that...
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| Hrolf The Ganger 20 Jul 16 12.19pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Well,ignoring the lessons of former Yugoslavia,counter-insurgency strategy in the former British Empire, and N Ireland would certainly say something about the person ignoring them,I can agree that... Well I wouldn't claim to be an expert on military strategy or history but you clearly would.
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| legaleagle 20 Jul 16 12.23pm |
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now now
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NickinOX  Sailing country. 20 Jul 16 1.09pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Let's take your example of the Balkans at face value Danny. Where precisely is it kicking off there now and why? When it did all kick off ,was it(1) because of muslims? or (2) because of gutter carve up power games by the Serbian nationalists (Orthadox Christians) and the Croatian nationalists (Catholics) which started things off so the muslim community ended up having to defend itself from massacres such as Srebrenica and radicalising much of that community . If that's not enough for you,look up the previous round of inter religious/ethnic killings in the region in 1941-45 and look up the mass killings Jasenovac concentration camp.Was it run by (1) muslims or (2) Croatian fascists in alliance with the local Catholic church? There is plainly a problem we face from sulafist jihadi ideology...but to be too simplistic can be worse than pretending the issue doesn't exist ... In terms of N Ireland,where arguably we could have dealt with things a lot better in say 1968-75 in winning over the hears and minds of the wider Catholic community rather than letting the Provos make so many inroads. Our armed forces gained a reputation for being good at counter insurgency in Malaya in the 1950's (a reputation we lived off until Iraq and Afghanistan) precisely because "hearts and minds" was recognised as very important in relation to the peaceful majority of an ethnic group from within which a violent extreme had taken up arms.A lesson the Americans so ignored in Vietnam. We forget those lessons/reminders now at our peril. Edited by legaleagle (20 Jul 2016 11.39am) Much of what has been written about Malaya has been debunked, and the British were pretty brutal in their treatment of the ethnic Chinese. Furthermore, the US did use British expertise in Vietnam, and it backfired as the lessons from the Malayan conflict did not translate well to the far more complex situation in Vietnam. Where the lessons of Malaya were false can best be seen with the fact that the communists almost exclusively came from the minority ethic Chinese population who were easily (forcibly) separated from the ethnic majority and from the communist insurgents. The same policy in Vietnam was disastrous.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it. |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 20 Jul 16 1.37pm |
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Originally posted by dannyh
Is that a fact ? well I suggest you visit Afghan, Western Africa, Iran, Iraq, the Balkans, basically everywhere were the Muslim faith is the ruling religion there is trouble,(bar the kingdom of saudi and we all know why that it.) there is no getting away from it Jamie, as unpalatable as it may be for some, the religion of Islam has no place in a modern progressive society that tolerates all. Difference is Muslims are fighting on both sides in that (incidentally Saudi Arabia is also engaged in fighting in Yemen) - Which is why the Nazi analogy with Germans and Nazi's was incorrect (a good example of the complexity is that in Syria you have). So whilst you have Muslims fighting in those countries, its kind of important to remember that those are also a) civil wars and internal conflicts and b) they're Muslim countries where most of the population is Muslim. In Afghanistan, the government forces and the various opposition forces are Muslims. Same as in Iraq and Syria, and we're supporting one side in both conflicts. Its too much of a simplification to say Islam is war - You could probably say the same of Secular UK (been involved in five wars r conflicts in 17 years). Or Christianity, given that lots of Christians are fighting in different countries (as well as part of the UK and US forces). You could say Jews, and point out that Israeli has been fighting war, pretty much since its inception. Islam doesn't come down to a simple equation, nothing does.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 20 Jul 16 1.39pm |
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Originally posted by Stuk
This is a crap analogy. The KKK don't immigrate to Arabic countries and then kill at random. They're f***ing idiots but the comparison isn't valid. That's why its an analogy, rather than a comparison.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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