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Military Coup Attempt in Turkey

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Jul 16 10.03am

Originally posted by blackpalacefan

I think there are false flag elements to it too possibly. These massive changes to the military and the judiciary would've been impossible otherwise. All you'd need to do was to encourage a weak coup and then it's a done deal. Soldiers typically follow orders. From the footage and reports it's clear that lots of these young conscripts didn't even know that they were part of a coup.

It wouldn't be the first time Erdogan has attempted to create a piece of theatre in order to manipulate the population. This video he tried to ban from 2014 was very damning [Link]

It was very close to successful though. A coup is a gamble, usually a minority of the military rebels and if its successful, a large section of the military follow their orders rather than refuse them, and other bodies and groups react in response to a coup. Very small and weak coups have turned into full scale revolutions, and civil wars.

 


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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 18 Jul 16 11.33am Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

It was very close to successful though. A coup is a gamble, usually a minority of the military rebels and if its successful, a large section of the military follow their orders rather than refuse them, and other bodies and groups react in response to a coup. Very small and weak coups have turned into full scale revolutions, and civil wars.

I'm somewhat suspicious of the fact that 2700 judges were removed from duty the very next day. Of course we could argue that the coup was viewed as an opportunity to make these changes but the speed and purposefulness of it was quite staggering.

It could be that Erdogan had advanced notice of this and so had time to prepare his actions. It wouldn't be the first time a coup had taken there obviously. But now we know that they could've taken out Erdogan but seemingly chose not to [Link] - even though that's a key aspect of a coup - so lots about what happened is unusual.

I definitely wouldn't put it past him that they went some way to encourage these events or at least let it occur with prior knowledge, in order to make vast and sweeping changes to the country.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Jul 16 11.51am

Originally posted by blackpalacefan

I'm somewhat suspicious of the fact that 2700 judges were removed from duty the very next day. Of course we could argue that the coup was viewed as an opportunity to make these changes but the speed and purposefulness of it was quite staggering.

It could be that Erdogan had advanced notice of this and so had time to prepare his actions. It wouldn't be the first time a coup had taken there obviously. But now we know that they could've taken out Erdogan but seemingly chose not to [Link] - even though that's a key aspect of a coup - so lots about what happened is unusual.

I definitely wouldn't put it past him that they went some way to encourage these events or at least let it occur with prior knowledge, in order to make vast and sweeping changes to the country.

My suspicion is that Erdogan had planned for the possibility of a coup or similar uprising and had ideas about how he would exploit that to his advantage.

Generally things like a coup don't 'appear out of nowhere' and I expect that he may well have been aware of unrest among the military, and I would expect that prior to the coup, military officers in Turkey had made official protests and clear their issues, rather than immediately planning to replace the government.

Of course 2700 Judges to me, reads more like taking advantage to consolidate power, removing a second problematic thorn in his side.

 


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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 18 Jul 16 12.02pm Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

My suspicion is that Erdogan had planned for the possibility of a coup or similar uprising and had ideas about how he would exploit that to his advantage.

Generally things like a coup don't 'appear out of nowhere' and I expect that he may well have been aware of unrest among the military, and I would expect that prior to the coup, military officers in Turkey had made official protests and clear their issues, rather than immediately planning to replace the government.

Of course 2700 Judges to me, reads more like taking advantage to consolidate power, removing a second problematic thorn in his side.

You may well be right. If it was a legitimate take over attempt I wish it had succeeded. Not as though anyone taking over by force is likely to be entirely benign, but I think Erdogan is going to go swiftly in a direction now that doesn't benefit his own people or the world.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Jul 16 12.11pm

Originally posted by blackpalacefan

You may well be right. If it was a legitimate take over attempt I wish it had succeeded. Not as though anyone taking over by force is likely to be entirely benign, but I think Erdogan is going to go swiftly in a direction now that doesn't benefit his own people or the world.

I think, in terms of NATO and UK geo-politics it would have been benefical long term, especially with the situation in Syria, to have seen a secular military authority dominant in Turkey. Unless of course that authority then decided to act militarily against the Kurdish...

But I doubt the Turkish people see it the same way.

 


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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 18 Jul 16 12.35pm Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think, in terms of NATO and UK geo-politics it would have been benefical long term, especially with the situation in Syria, to have seen a secular military authority dominant in Turkey. Unless of course that authority then decided to act militarily against the Kurdish...

But I doubt the Turkish people see it the same way.

There does seem to be a sizeable secular presense in Turkish society but now that there is a media stranglehold and censorship, I see that ebbing away over time due to state propoganda. It's a worry.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 18 Jul 16 12.46pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

My suspicion is that Erdogan had planned for the possibility of a coup or similar uprising and had ideas about how he would exploit that to his advantage.

Generally things like a coup don't 'appear out of nowhere' and I expect that he may well have been aware of unrest among the military, and I would expect that prior to the coup, military officers in Turkey had made official protests and clear their issues, rather than immediately planning to replace the government.

Of course 2700 Judges to me, reads more like taking advantage to consolidate power, removing a second problematic thorn in his side.

Or...

Erdogan was intending taking some draconian action and, knowing that was coming, the Army took advance action in too much of a hurry having had its hand forced.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 18 Jul 16 12.47pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by blackpalacefan

There does seem to be a sizeable secular presense in Turkish society but now that there is a media stranglehold and censorship, I see that ebbing away over time due to state propoganda. It's a worry.

I suspect there is a significant split between the 'Westernised' elite and the rest. My Turkish friends are deeply secular and see themselves as progressive, but that's Ankara and especially Istanbul.

 

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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 18 Jul 16 12.50pm Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

I suspect there is a significant split between the 'Westernised' elite and the rest. My Turkish friends are deeply secular and see themselves as progressive, but that's Ankara and especially Istanbul.

Yes I feel bad for them. It looks like people like that might gradually be squeezed out of playing any meaningful part in their own country.

 

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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 18 Jul 16 1.02pm Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

My suspicion is that Erdogan had planned for the possibility of a coup or similar uprising and had ideas about how he would exploit that to his advantage.


This follows along the same lines [Link]

I do think there's a fine between planning for something like this and actively wanting it to take place like a wishlist scenario. They likely knew something was in the works as you say, but possibly either encouraged it or turned a blind eye up to a certain point. A purge of almost 9000 Interior Ministry staff, 2750 judges, 3000+ soldiers. It's moving into dictatorship territory.


Edited by blackpalacefan (18 Jul 2016 1.05pm)

 

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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 18 Jul 16 1.06pm Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend


Rebel jets had Erdogan's plane in their sights - [Link]


 

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legaleagle Flag 18 Jul 16 1.48pm

Originally posted by blackpalacefan

This follows along the same lines [Link]

I do think there's a fine between planning for something like this and actively wanting it to take place like a wishlist scenario. They likely knew something was in the works as you say, but possibly either encouraged it or turned a blind eye up to a certain point. A purge of almost 9000 Interior Ministry staff, 2750 judges, 3000+ soldiers. It's moving into dictatorship territory.


Edited by blackpalacefan (18 Jul 2016 1.05pm)

I suspect Erdogan's dreams have been answered by this (whether he knew in advance or not),quite possibly removing the barriers to his wish to turn the presidency into a more executive one,and to further attack any voices of dissent,political and media.

By saturday afternoon,hundreds of judges had been "suspended".Seems an unlikely thing to have time to get around to if a coup attempt had come from the army (not the judges) out of the blue only the night before

 

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