Ban Islamic immigration. Yes or no?
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 Stirlingsays  25 Jul 16 12.08pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The US foreign policy of the pre-9/11 era did include a number of cruise missile strikes against 'terrorist sites and training camps', typically in response to strikes by Al-Qaeda affiliates (such as the USS Cole Bombing and the Kenyan and Tanazian US Embassy attacks). Notably in the later Operation Infinite Reach (pre-USS Cole) resulted in a number of very questionable strikes, including a Sudanese Pharmacological factor, and ISI pakistani Camps in Afghanistan, training fighters for Kashmir (resulting in a lot of ill will between ISI and the CIA) However the issue with Al-Qaeda and the US is far more related to the US governments support of Saudi Arabia and the stationing of troops in the area. But effectively since the end of the first Iraq war, this has been a slowly growing conflict, that increasingly drew Islamist factions into a 'Al-Qaeda vs the US' situation, that ultimately ended up in 9/11. Operation Infinite reach was launched when Clinton was undergoing the Lewinski Scandal, having recently testified. Christianity and Judaism have endured Muslims having control and presence in their most holy sites for over a thousand years. Islam built a mosque on the temple mount for gawd's sake. The religious aspects of terroristic claims are completely hypocritical. Where is the comparable level of terrorism? There does exist movements dedicated to the removal of Muslims and Islam from these holy sites....but sorry...it has to be stated that any notion that seeks to portray all religions as equal in threat level because humans form their currency misses out the reality that the texts themselves are different and that some interpretations, though not mainstream, are easier to justify than others...especially in areas of poverty...though not exclusive to it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 25 Jul 16 12.24pm |
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Any religious interpretation that does not challenge the separation of church and state and is non violent towards other subjects/citizens within it certainly has no issues with me. That includes interpretation of Islam or any religion. I would be happy to have many of the Kurdish secular Muslims fighting IS as immigrants here in opposition to many here who cause problems with integration. Its important that those that live in peace within our society are treated the same regardless of whatever they believe as that's a fundamental cornerstone of western values.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Jul 16 12.50pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Christianity and Judaism have endured Muslims having control and presence in their most holy sites for over a thousand years. Islam built a mosque on the temple mount for gawd's sake. The religious aspects of terroristic claims are completely hypocritical. Where is the comparable level of terrorism? There does exist movements dedicated to the removal of Muslims and Islam from these holy sites....but sorry...it has to be stated that any notion that seeks to portray all religions as equal in threat level because humans form their currency misses out the reality that the texts themselves are different and that some interpretations, though not mainstream, are easier to justify than others...especially in areas of poverty...though not exclusive to it.
Well yes, they are. Typically this is true of religious extremists, and most religious leaders on any scale. Of course during that period, Islam, Christian Faiths and Judaism largely lived in a surprisingly peaceful basis, excepting the occasional Catholic based crusades. The issue really has grown out of, I think, the corrupt ceasepit of Middle Eastern politics, and the failure of the post-Empire world to deliver some kind of reasonable or stable forms of government. Politics and violence are inseperable in many if not all of the major middle eastern nations (both by the state and by the protest movements). This has fuelled the rise of Islamist Militant groups, especially since the end of the Soviet Union across the region, simply because peaceful protest movements don't last long. Couple this with the funding and desire of Saudi Arabia to export the problem, has led to an infection within Islam that has become attractive - and convenient - for a number of preachers to exploit for their own gain. Ultimately delivering such horrors as IS and Boko Harem (organisations in which the end goal of 'independence' seems less important than 'headline grabbing horror'.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Jul 16 12.55pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Any religious interpretation that does not challenge the separation of church and state and is non violent towards other subjects/citizens within it certainly has no issues with me. That includes interpretation of Islam or any religion. I would be happy to have many of the Kurdish secular Muslims fighting IS as immigrants here in opposition to many here who cause problems with integration. Its important that those that live in peace within our society are treated the same regardless of whatever they believe as that's a fundamental cornerstone of western values. Pretty much sums up a fair analysis. I don't care if people are religious or even super religious, provided they keep it to their own life. I'd even be happy for people to have Sharia law, if as grown adults they sign up for having it applied to them and they can divorce themselves from it. I don't understand why a woman would want to be subject to the absurdity of waabist nonsense and horses**t masqueraded as Islam, but if they want to and are old enough to make a decision for themselves, then they only have themselves to blame (well at least if they were raised in the UK). Same with fundamentalist Christians, I don't care how they live, provided they stop trying to insist that everyone fits into their stupid, petty moronic view of the world.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 25 Jul 16 2.19pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Pretty much sums up a fair analysis. I don't care if people are religious or even super religious, provided they keep it to their own life. I'd even be happy for people to have Sharia law, if as grown adults they sign up for having it applied to them and they can divorce themselves from it. I don't understand why a woman would want to be subject to the absurdity of waabist nonsense and horses**t masqueraded as Islam, but if they want to and are old enough to make a decision for themselves, then they only have themselves to blame (well at least if they were raised in the UK). Same with fundamentalist Christians, I don't care how they live, provided they stop trying to insist that everyone fits into their stupid, petty moronic view of the world. absolutely Jamie, however when was the last time a sandal wearing God botherer, blew himself to bits taking women and children with him, stabbed a young un and his mum for wearing swim wear, went on the rampage killing loads of people with a gun on a night out, axed people to death on train. Your constant reference to the Christian world is about 200 years out of date. Also the IRA and their bombing campaign against mainland UK was not entirely based on religion, true enough the two sides were different brands of sky monkey, however the main reason was the occupation of Ireland by the English. religion as always has become the excuse.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| Stirlingsays 25 Jul 16 2.23pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Pretty much sums up a fair analysis. I don't care if people are religious or even super religious, provided they keep it to their own life. I'd even be happy for people to have Sharia law, if as grown adults they sign up for having it applied to them and they can divorce themselves from it. I don't understand why a woman would want to be subject to the absurdity of waabist nonsense and horses**t masqueraded as Islam, but if they want to and are old enough to make a decision for themselves, then they only have themselves to blame (well at least if they were raised in the UK). Same with fundamentalist Christians, I don't care how they live, provided they stop trying to insist that everyone fits into their stupid, petty moronic view of the world. I agree, though I'm aware of the fact that many women within Islamic communities face overwhelming cultural pressure to accept the extra restrictions placed upon their behaviour by even the mainstream interpretation of Islam. Much of what I could say could be applied to homosexuals here. But lets focus upon Women. From being raised to wear head coverings to not being allowed to express their sexuality.......to the freedom of even feeling free to wear a bikini on a beach. Sure as adults.....having been raised within this culture many adult Muslim women may feel fine and even embrace and propagate these attitudes.....However we are also aware of culture coercion and rejection if they feel differently...At the extreme end honour killings connected to female behaviour....Lets not fool ourselves of the costs associated with being different within their context. This repression is placed upon women on freedoms that are excepted without question for non Islamic women......This friction is real and much of its implications are deliberately ignored. Many of the left and indeed some on the right are absolutely responsible for an incredible misjudgement on the tolerance and lack of forthright response to these attitudes. The women that take the decision to control their own lives face unacceptable risks and treatment and worse of all.....they face silence...many from a party so full of social justice warriors that it would sink in the dead sea. Secular humanists of any political hue need to say it as it is and protect real basic human rights.....the right to be yourself and not what a religion thinks you should be.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Jul 16 2.40pm |
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Originally posted by dannyh
absolutely Jamie, however when was the last time a sandal wearing God botherer, blew himself to bits taking women and children with him, stabbed a young un and his mum for wearing swim wear, went on the rampage killing loads of people with a gun on a night out, axed people to death on train. Your constant reference to the Christian world is about 200 years out of date. Also the IRA and their bombing campaign against mainland UK was not entirely based on religion, true enough the two sides were different brands of sky monkey, however the main reason was the occupation of Ireland by the English. religion as always has become the excuse. Nor is IS. Its about politics and control of territory, notably in Iraq and Syria, for the most part. That's not to say that any of the absurdity of whats happening is justified (and recent events in Germany question just how protracted from the situation this is becoming) but the reality is that IS and the UK, along with NATO, are engaged in some kind of war. Of course Christian Fundamentalists have committed acts of terror such as bombings, and assassinations, both in the US and Russia. Fundamentalism isn't really a religion, its a means of political control, that exploits people into obedience and adherence to a typically hypocritical and brutally inhumane elite. The leadership of IS like any other movement, wants power and influence over others, and has found a means to achieve this. I bet they are wildly hypocritical as well, engaging in all manner of things they demand their followers avoid.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Jul 16 2.52pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I agree, though I'm aware of the fact that many women within Islamic communities face overwhelming cultural pressure to accept the extra restrictions placed upon their behaviour by even the mainstream interpretation of Islam. Much of what I could say could be applied to homosexuals here. But lets focus upon Women. From being raised to wear head coverings to not being allowed to express their sexuality.......to the freedom of even feeling free to wear a bikini on a beach. Sure as adults.....having been raised within this culture many adult Muslim women may feel fine and even embrace and propagate these attitudes.....However we are also aware of culture coercion and rejection if they feel differently...At the extreme end honour killings connected to female behaviour....Lets not fool ourselves of the costs associated with being different within their context. This repression is placed upon women on freedoms that are excepted without question for non Islamic women......This friction is real and much of its implications are deliberately ignored. Many of the left and indeed some on the right are absolutely responsible for an incredible misjudgement on the tolerance and lack of forthright response to these attitudes. The women that take the decision to control their own lives face unacceptable risks and treatment and worse of all.....they face silence...many from a party so full of social justice warriors that it would sink in the dead sea. Secular humanists of any political hue need to say it as it is and protect real basic human rights.....the right to be yourself and not what a religion thinks you should be. Gender or sexuality......God forbid you try to walk away from the religion.
Quite agree and those Islamist sects are the ones I'd like to see increasing marginalised. Much like groups like Britain First, they have nothing to offer a society except misery and hate. But there are much broader and less stringent Muslims among the UK. Personally, I'd be happy for the UK to offer Asylum to women from any Muslim country. Same with homosexuals, and not only happy, I think its something we should do. Its not enough to try to change Afghanistan by supporting a regime that's not as bad as the Taliban. Offer those who are oppressed, objectified, degraded, humiliated etc. Asylum. I'd like to ultimate see a country in which religion is as meaningless as a definition as sexual orientation, gender, race, status etc.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 25 Jul 16 3.33pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Quite agree and those Islamist sects are the ones I'd like to see increasing marginalised. Much like groups like Britain First, they have nothing to offer a society except misery and hate. But there are much broader and less stringent Muslims among the UK. Personally, I'd be happy for the UK to offer Asylum to women from any Muslim country. Same with homosexuals, and not only happy, I think its something we should do. Its not enough to try to change Afghanistan by supporting a regime that's not as bad as the Taliban. Offer those who are oppressed, objectified, degraded, humiliated etc. Asylum. I'd like to ultimate see a country in which religion is as meaningless as a definition as sexual orientation, gender, race, status etc. Oh f*** off grasshopper
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| Stirlingsays 25 Jul 16 3.45pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Quite agree and those Islamist sects are the ones I'd like to see increasing marginalised. Much like groups like Britain First, they have nothing to offer a society except misery and hate. But there are much broader and less stringent Muslims among the UK. Personally, I'd be happy for the UK to offer Asylum to women from any Muslim country. Same with homosexuals, and not only happy, I think its something we should do. Its not enough to try to change Afghanistan by supporting a regime that's not as bad as the Taliban. Offer those who are oppressed, objectified, degraded, humiliated etc. Asylum. I'd like to ultimate see a country in which religion is as meaningless as a definition as sexual orientation, gender, race, status etc. As much as immigration numbers bother me, I to am happy to see the genuinely oppressed given asylum....especially secularists.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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ASCPFC  Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 25 Jul 16 5.03pm |
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I would have to suggest that perhaps terrorists could maybe withhold their religious identities at border control - unless you made them eat bacon and read Charlie Hebdou or something.
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| Stirlingsays 25 Jul 16 5.23pm |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
I would have to suggest that perhaps terrorists could maybe withhold their religious identities at border control - unless you made them eat bacon and read Charlie Hebdou or something. What a load of crap you write. I want to continue to live in a secular country. I think it makes sense to support that concept. If an incoming person is fine with this country having separation of church and state and doesn't inflict oppression and separatism upon people within their influence then I'm fine with them.....That goes with any religion. In that sense their religion is irrelevant to me. However, If you think it's sensible to blindly ignore the increase of religious people who would prefer significant structural change in the country then really debate with people like you is pointless. People like you with your sneering attitude with its implicit insinuations of racism are responsible for the climate of non-intervention and fear from otherwise good people which allows that internal oppression and separatism to exist within minority cultures without significant or useful challenge. Essentially you are the problem just as much as the oppressors are. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Jul 2016 5.25pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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