Fidel Castro
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jamiemartin721  Reading 29 Nov 16 12.50pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Tell that to the families of Castro's tortured/murdered victims who opposed his regime Jamie... not us! Not the issue, the point was about what value literacy if you can't be a free thinker. There are plenty of free thinkers in Cuba without being dissident by default. Of course its worth remembering that some of those who oppsed the regime, murdered innocent civilians and committed crimes, such as bombing Cuba Airlines and even US airlines that opened up routes into Cuba. They also include those of the Bastista regime who had also been torturers, murders and involved in the suppression of free thinking. Plus of course those who were involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion, and the countless number of plots to murder Castro. Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
I'm not sure they would trade the loss of a loved one for improved literacy and education as blithely as you suggest. Well I'd argue that without that literacy and education, the act of becoming a dissident is a lot harder than if you a) can't read b) without education. People don't have some instinctive desire to be democratic and free, they're socially conditioned by their environment and being able to read tends to be very important in understanding criticism of that environment. Its very hard to protest, without actually being able to understand what your protesting. Which requires literacy and education. There is a weird reason why revolutionaries tend to be upper working to middle class and university educated.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Nov 16 12.51pm |
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Originally posted by Stuk
So you can read the rules. If you can't read the rules, and understand why they're wrong, you can't change them.
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| Hoof Hearted 29 Nov 16 12.53pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well the National Socialist Party of Germany wasn't entirely without achievement, and quite possibly if it had avoided suppression of the Jews, and getting into a European War, might well have survived longer than four years. The problem with most of our experiences of Far Right Oppressive regimes, is that they do have a nasty tendency to be good for us economically, rather than for the people of those countries most in need. Of course its tends to be problematic as well in that Cuba persecuted dissidents, and former regime members - on the whole - where as National Socialism persecuted people on the basis of being personal prejudice (which of course Cuba isn't itself innocent of either). Plus the holocaust tends to hang heavy in the west, where as the cruelty of pol pot, stalin and moa tends to be overlooked as remote, because it happened 'elsewhere' The holocaust 'hangs heavy' because you lefties continually beat anyone over the head with it if their thoughts ever stray towards the right of centre, let alone vote UKIP or BNP. I think Penge summed it up earlier on this thread.... So - according to the left/BBC... Right Wing Dictator killing people = Bad Left Wing Dictator killing people = good
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 Stuk Top half 29 Nov 16 12.55pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
If you can't read the rules, and understand why they're wrong, you can't change them. If you live in dictatorship you can't change anything, as you have no say at all. Young children can't read the rules either, but they can be told them.
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| Hoof Hearted 29 Nov 16 12.55pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well I'd argue that without that literacy and education, the act of becoming a dissident is a lot harder than if you a) can't read b) without education. People don't have some instinctive desire to be democratic and free, they're socially conditioned by their environment and being able to read tends to be very important in understanding criticism of that environment. Its very hard to protest, without actually being able to understand what your protesting. Which requires literacy and education. There is a weird reason why revolutionaries tend to be upper working to middle class and university educated. So Jamie... in conclusion you would be happy for your wife and/or children to be tortured/murdered to improve literacy and education would you? EDIT: Half of Jamie's original post has been wiped out. Edited by Hoof Hearted (29 Nov 2016 12.57pm)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Nov 16 4.10pm |
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Originally posted by Stuk
If you live in dictatorship you can't change anything, as you have no say at all. Young children can't read the rules either, but they can be told them. Well yes, of course you can change things, its just typically quite dangerous to do so. Dictatorships typically tend to spring up as a result of the failure of capitalism and democracy. Had the Batista regime been more reasonable, and represented the people of Cubas interests and needs there wouldn't have been a successful revolution. Similar to Iran, the regime in power owes its rise to power to the failures of the Shah and American Foreign Policy, as it does to the Islamic revolutionaries.
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| We are goin up! Coulsdon 29 Nov 16 4.15pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
IMO Cubans have a better life than USA or UK and should be left to live peacefully without interference. Corbyn's view of Cuba is balanced and he has actually been there several times. I found it much the same when I was there he did talk about human rights too -however when talking about human rights the UK and USA really should be looking at themselves. People who live in greenhouses should not throw stones.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Nov 16 4.21pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
So Jamie... in conclusion you would be happy for your wife and/or children to be tortured/murdered to improve literacy and education would you? EDIT: Half of Jamie's original post has been wiped out. Edited by Hoof Hearted (29 Nov 2016 12.57pm) Not at all, and not what I said. The failure of the Batista regime, which used torture and murder and did not improve literacy and education, created the successful basis of the revolution. But the simple fact is that Cuba's provision of things like welfare, education, literacy, medicine are themselves impressive. The killing and murder has little to do with those achievements. Castro isn't a hero, but some of the achievements of Cuba are very impressive. Obviously, killing people for their political beliefs is unacceptable, as is torture (especially of innocent people and families). But then its worth remembering not all of those killed by the Regime were actually innocent of actual crimes either. In a large part the high levels of state sanctioned killing relates to the pre-revolution regime and the bay of pigs invasion. We seem to be pretty ok with torturing people who might be Islamic terrorists, putting people in prison without trial, killing suspected terrorists without fair trial etc.
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| elgrande bedford 29 Nov 16 4.24pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
IMO Cubans have a better life than USA or UK and should be left to live peacefully without interference. Corbyn's view of Cuba is balanced and he has actually been there several times. I found it much the same when I was there he did talk about human rights too -however when talking about human rights the UK and USA really should be looking at themselves. People who live in greenhouses should not throw stones. FFS
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Nov 16 4.28pm |
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Originally posted by We are goin up!
I bet few of them are aiming to move to countries of a similar economic strength though. Obviously I'd rather live in the US than Cuba. But I'd probably rather live in Cuba than a Brazilian Favelo, a Hondurian Slum even large parts of Mexico. Your life prospects are probably a lot better in Cuba than many poor s**tholes across the world (where you won't get an education, learn to read, welfare and starvation and violent crime are the norm among the poor). Cuba I think is one of those places. Better than the reality of being dirt poor in any number of s**tholes across the world.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Nov 16 4.32pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
The holocaust 'hangs heavy' because you lefties continually beat anyone over the head with it if their thoughts ever stray towards the right of centre, let alone vote UKIP or BNP. I think Penge summed it up earlier on this thread.... So - according to the left/BBC... Right Wing Dictator killing people = Bad Left Wing Dictator killing people = good
Only very stupid people reduce complex arguments to emotional appeal or good vs bad. F**k it most of the 1st world democracies are killing people regularly these days (at least 250,000 dead Iraqis for example).
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| Stuk Top half 29 Nov 16 4.34pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I bet few of them are aiming to move to countries of a similar economic strength though. Obviously I'd rather live in the US than Cuba. But I'd probably rather live in Cuba than a Brazilian Favelo, a Hondurian Slum even large parts of Mexico. Your life prospects are probably a lot better in Cuba than many poor s**tholes across the world (where you won't get an education, learn to read, welfare and starvation and violent crime are the norm among the poor). Cuba I think is one of those places. Better than the reality of being dirt poor in any number of s**tholes across the world. The trouble is there's no prospect of not remaining dirt poor. You're basically saying, they would have no potential to change their lives in any other country.
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