quite. seems like back to square one. RMT are out next week anyway (Wednesday I think), ASLEF now don't speak for the staff, so it begs the question "what point would be served by more negotiations?". If the union and the management sit down and negotiate a deal, but the staff don't accept it, it seems a waste of everyone's time. Do the union even know what the staff want?

Seems all trust has gone. Union don't trust company, workers don't trust union, workers don't trust company, company doesn't give a f**k because they get paid anyway. Omnishambles!

The vote was close enough to give Southern hope that a few little changes should swing a vote.

The problem Southern have is, they've been caught lying and this new deal depended on trust. Can't blame drivers for not trusting a company that's lied to them twice this year.

A new deal will have to airtight. Drivers won't vote a yes for a ambiguous deal.

The problem Southern have got... is there is very low morale and no trust. They also need at least 30% of their workforce to do favours so they can run a service. They're chronically understaffed. I expect Southern are gonna have to pay through the nose to get drivers to do O/T now. They're gonna realise this dispute is gonna cost them ££££'s
They've f***ed off the very people they need to keep their franchise.

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but oh dear Southern.

[Link]

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

TOCs (Train Operating Companies) have no say... Network Rail have a meeting (usually 9 months in advance) and tell the TOCs what engineering they have planned... this sometimes changes at short notice... if there's a pressing issue... when I worked for a TOC, we had major issues with subsidence in rural locations, also cable theft was a big problem... these meant emergency engineering works were planned at short notice.

The Gatwick problem was Southern management trying to do things on the cheap... they will always rather book to few replacement buses than too many... sometimes this goes slightly wrong... sometimes it goes massively wrong (sunny bank holiday weekend... passenger numbers can double)

Your comment about driverless trains confuses me... are you against the reasons for drivers striking?
As someone who worked in HR for 2 different TOCs... I totally understand why they went on strike... Southern have handled the drivers concerns terribly... Southern knew the CCTV was substandard... they knew it when I worked there... the unions H&S rep would continually tell us... Southern forced through DOO on the cheap... the union (think it was ASLEF) have got a CCTV upgrade, and a guaranteed 2nd person which allows disabled access.

I've sat in meetings where the current management have tried their best to cut corners on safety and have wanted to deny wheelchair users the right to use trains... they constantly asked for ways to get round the Disability Discrimination Act.

My hands aren't clean... I was part of the problem... Working in HR means you sell your soul... the constant pressure to increase profits is overwhelming

ASLEF have never even represented let alone defended a train driver that has failed a breath test, they completely wash their hands of them... if we had to fire someone for failing a random or Safety induced D&A (Drugs/alcohol) test, it was a slam dunk. I think you're confusing it with the tube case where the management got rid of the sample of urine after testing it... this goes against all agreed protocols and the system is then open for abuse.

Driveless trains probably won't come in to use in the next 20-30 years... and they'll probably still need someone up front. Southern/SouthEastern/SouthWest still run over routes with semaphore signalling.

This has been discussed loads.... but the Southern franchise is the one of its kind... I left the industry before it came in, but it's a no risk management contract...They get paid a set amount to carry out the DfT's instructions... I think Southern's approach to industrial relations has Tory fingerprints all over it.... Southern made money during the strike days... they had same operating costs, less wages (they don't get ticket sales)... the government also let them buy out their poor performance clauses in the contract... the whole franchise was set up to go to war with the unions. The old CEO refused, Southern then went for Charles Horton, who is also on the board of the RSSB (Rail Safety and Standards Board). No conflict of interests there!

If you take one thing from this.... the whole industrial action was expected, the franchise (the first ever risk free management only contract) was designed to insulate Southern financially from any industrial action... Southern knew their CCTV was substandard.... Southern knew that getting rid of guards would deprive the disabled of access to their trains... they still made these changes... safe in the knowledge that DfT backed them. Middle management (the ones I know) agree with the unions... the plan was to buy off the train drivers with a big fat pay rise... funded by getting rid of guards (there would have still have been a huge saving for Southern). Fair play to the drivers... they refused all pay rises... they demanded better safety equipment and they also demanded a 2nd person on board to ensure access for disabled passengers.
I got told recently the cost to update the in cab cctv to HD cameras.... it's a eye watering amount.

When I was there... we stitched up soooo many staff. We really f***ed over the cleaners. To get around paying them for lunch breaks... a manager came up with a plan to instead of having a 8 hour shift... we'd have two 4 hour shifts... so instead of working 8-5pm with a paid break, he changed it to split shifts.. shift 1 was 8-12... shift 2 was 1-5pm.
This manager was on a 6 figure salary.... top management were over the moon with this saving. The cleaners were on minimum wage. Everyone should be in a union... Capitalism s***s on the poor.
I am gamekeeper turned poacher... After working in HR, I now am 100% in favour of unions.
In my defence... I turned my back on a very good salary/pension/bonus scheme and free travel (which I massively miss), but I played my part in screwing over people on minimum wage... i genuinely feel guilt... I know the actions of my team caused hardship for poorly paid people, just so rich people could get richer.
I can't change that... when I employ people now (I work in property) I always pay a minimum of £10 a hour.
I employed a family member who was useless... it was more to give him a chance in life.... he followed me around... watched me work.. did some labouring...he got £10 a hour... he was in his teens.
We all have choices... you can buy cheap trainers from a company that uses sweatshops... you can use the self serve checkouts... you can hope for automisation of the workforce... so your fellow working man is redundant... or you can make sure you use your consumer power positively... you can queue for checkouts and use a human, you can pay a bit more for your trainers, you can use the local butchers instead of Tesco.