Building on Green Belt land

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the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 07 Feb 17 3.02pm
Originally posted by .TUX. Yes it is, and it's only going to get bigger. It's both. Birth rates exceeding death rates are currently the biggest factor to population growth (as I understand it), but net migration is also a big factor. The low death rate is mainly due to people living longer.
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the_mcanuff_stuff

Caterham 07 Feb 17 3.02pm

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Originally posted by .TUX.

Yes it is, and it's only going to get bigger.

It's both. Birth rates exceeding death rates are currently the biggest factor to population growth (as I understand it), but net migration is also a big factor. The low death rate is mainly due to people living longer.

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becky over the moon 07 Feb 17 3.16pm
...and let's not overlook all those couples, formerly occupying one property, who then divorce and then need 2 homes (with one needing to be bigger than actual requirements so the kids can come over at weekends). Yes, the younger generation play their part in the demand too! A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 07 Feb 17 3.16pm

...and let's not overlook all those couples, formerly occupying one property, who then divorce and then need 2 homes (with one needing to be bigger than actual requirements so the kids can come over at weekends).
Yes, the younger generation play their part in the demand too!

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Feb 17 3.39pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The population went up 10 million in the last decade and heaven know how much more in this one. I can't take housing shortage whinging seriously when the finishing line is being moved so dramatically and constantly. The ultimate solution is obvious. Its definitely compounded an existing problem greatly, whilst creating greater profits for landlords which hasn't been comparatively taxed. Short termism in the extreme. Like with smokers, we tax them based on the cost to the NHS, and at least in theory, that additional cost is supposed to find its way into the treasury and welfare to compensate that additional cost. We've done nothing comparable with housing and landlords, in order to provide the capacity for citizens to have affordable housing (rental or otherwise). Effectively citizens are shelling out 50-80% of their income, just to live in what amounts to lower standards than council housing our parents and grandparents would have paid a far less for. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 07 Feb 17 3.39pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The population went up 10 million in the last decade and heaven know how much more in this one.
I can't take housing shortage whinging seriously when the finishing line is being moved so dramatically and constantly.
The ultimate solution is obvious.

Its definitely compounded an existing problem greatly, whilst creating greater profits for landlords which hasn't been comparatively taxed. Short termism in the extreme.

Like with smokers, we tax them based on the cost to the NHS, and at least in theory, that additional cost is supposed to find its way into the treasury and welfare to compensate that additional cost.

We've done nothing comparable with housing and landlords, in order to provide the capacity for citizens to have affordable housing (rental or otherwise). Effectively citizens are shelling out 50-80% of their income, just to live in what amounts to lower standards than council housing our parents and grandparents would have paid a far less for.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Feb 17 4.03pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Its definitely compounded an existing problem greatly, whilst creating greater profits for landlords which hasn't been comparatively taxed. Short termism in the extreme. Like with smokers, we tax them based on the cost to the NHS, and at least in theory, that additional cost is supposed to find its way into the treasury and welfare to compensate that additional cost. We've done nothing comparable with housing and landlords, in order to provide the capacity for citizens to have affordable housing (rental or otherwise). Effectively citizens are shelling out 50-80% of their income, just to live in what amounts to lower standards than council housing our parents and grandparents would have paid a far less for. I agree that the mortgage system and the standard of housing is a scandal. It is pure greed at the expense of the average but has nothing to do with the added pressure of rising population. Population growth must be contained and the first step for Britain is to greatly reduce immigration. That reality cannot be spun, clouded or escaped from.
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Hrolf The Ganger

07 Feb 17 4.03pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its definitely compounded an existing problem greatly, whilst creating greater profits for landlords which hasn't been comparatively taxed. Short termism in the extreme.

Like with smokers, we tax them based on the cost to the NHS, and at least in theory, that additional cost is supposed to find its way into the treasury and welfare to compensate that additional cost.

I agree that the mortgage system and the standard of housing is a scandal. It is pure greed at the expense of the average but has nothing to do with the added pressure of rising population.
Population growth must be contained and the first step for Britain is to greatly reduce immigration. That reality cannot be spun, clouded or escaped from.

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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Feb 17 4.10pm
Originally posted by .TUX. Yes it is, and it's only going to get bigger. No. The birth rate was in decline and would have lead to a population decrease had we not had mass immigration. There is a disproportionate amount of old people in the population which is exactly what you would expect with a declining birth rate. It is why we began to encourage overseas workers in the first place. What is not understood by many is how family size declined after the wars. Yes child mortality was greater in the 19th century but the birth rate was vastly larger. Look at old census and you will see the contrast.
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Hrolf The Ganger

07 Feb 17 4.10pm

Originally posted by .TUX.

Yes it is, and it's only going to get bigger.

No.

The birth rate was in decline and would have lead to a population decrease had we not had mass immigration.

There is a disproportionate amount of old people in the population which is exactly what you would expect with a declining birth rate. It is why we began to encourage overseas workers in the first place.
What is not understood by many is how family size declined after the wars. Yes child mortality was greater in the 19th century but the birth rate was vastly larger.

Look at old census and you will see the contrast.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Feb 17 4.21pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I agree that the mortgage system and the standard of housing is a scandal. It is pure greed at the expense of the average but has nothing to do with the added pressure of rising population. Population growth must be contained and the first step for Britain is to greatly reduce immigration. That reality cannot be spun, clouded or escaped from. Quite agree, the UK must control its population growth to sustainable levels, even if that means raising taxation for care of an aging population. Simply looking to quick fixes, such as relying on temporary immigration is short termist. More significantly, world wide, we need to be looking at population control. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 07 Feb 17 4.21pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Quite agree, the UK must control its population growth to sustainable levels, even if that means raising taxation for care of an aging population. Simply looking to quick fixes, such as relying on temporary immigration is short termist.

More significantly, world wide, we need to be looking at population control.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 07 Feb 17 5.02pm
You guys should read "Limits to Growth", a bit long in the tooth but still valid about exponential economic and population growth with finite resource supplies. It seems the HOL right wing are eco-facists(as in radical environmentalists) rather than climate change deniers. "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 07 Feb 17 5.02pm

You guys should read "Limits to Growth", a bit long in the tooth but still valid about exponential economic and population growth with finite resource supplies.

It seems the HOL right wing are eco-facists(as in radical environmentalists) rather than climate change deniers.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Feb 17 5.11pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Quite agree, the UK must control its population growth to sustainable levels, even if that means raising taxation for care of an aging population. Simply looking to quick fixes, such as relying on temporary immigration is short termist. More significantly, world wide, we need to be looking at population control. Total agreement. Endless mass immigration can only increase the problem in the future. Calculations must be made to ascertain an optimum birth rate and net immigration level that is sustainable and it will be for individual countries to make that happen. What we have now little or no genuine control over numbers.
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Hrolf The Ganger

07 Feb 17 5.11pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

More significantly, world wide, we need to be looking at population control.

Total agreement.

Endless mass immigration can only increase the problem in the future.
Calculations must be made to ascertain an optimum birth rate and net immigration level that is sustainable and it will be for individual countries to make that happen.
What we have now little or no genuine control over numbers.

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Hrolf The Ganger 07 Feb 17 5.13pm
Originally posted by pefwin You guys should read "Limits to Growth", a bit long in the tooth but still valid about exponential economic and population growth with finite resource supplies. It seems the HOL right wing are eco-facists(as in radical environmentalists) rather than climate change deniers. The can be no infinite anything in a finite system. In this case, the Earth. Except for stupidity perhaps. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (07 Feb 2017 5.14pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

07 Feb 17 5.13pm

Originally posted by pefwin

You guys should read "Limits to Growth", a bit long in the tooth but still valid about exponential economic and population growth with finite resource supplies.

It seems the HOL right wing are eco-facists(as in radical environmentalists) rather than climate change deniers.

The can be no infinite anything in a finite system. In this case, the Earth.

Except for stupidity perhaps.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (07 Feb 2017 5.14pm)

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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 07 Feb 17 5.24pm
Im just worried about the shareholders of house building companies not profiteering as much as they could!
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 07 Feb 17 5.24pm

Im just worried about the shareholders of house building companies not profiteering as much as they could!

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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 07 Feb 17 5.28pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The can be no infinite anything in a finite system. In this case, the Earth. Except for stupidity perhaps. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (07 Feb 2017 5.14pm) It was the problems with unfettered capitalism that and the infinite stupidity. "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 07 Feb 17 5.28pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The can be no infinite anything in a finite system. In this case, the Earth.

Except for stupidity perhaps.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (07 Feb 2017 5.14pm)

It was the problems with unfettered capitalism that and the infinite stupidity.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 07 Feb 17 5.43pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Quite agree, the UK must control its population growth to sustainable levels, even if that means raising taxation for care of an aging population. Simply looking to quick fixes, such as relying on temporary immigration is short termist. More significantly, world wide, we need to be looking at population control. Well, the good news is this, globally the number of people aged 0-16 is around 2 billion and on current projections, that is the most people there will ever be in that age bracket. Better healthcare in the developing world means many more people now survive childhood and this has reduced the number of children being born (because by nature, we humans overcompensate). Globally, population growth will purely be due to people living longer, with the population projected to level off at about 11 billion. The problem is no longer people having children at a greater than "replacement" rate. Of course, we should encourage people globally to reproduce below the replacement rate, to gradually reduce the population and the impact on the planet. For the UK (and the developed nations as a whole) population growth will be due to a mixture of increased longevity and immigration. Stopping immigration alone will not stop population growth in the UK, due to increased longevity. And barring a "Logan's run" style solution there's not much we can do about that side of the equation.
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the_mcanuff_stuff

Caterham 07 Feb 17 5.43pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

More significantly, world wide, we need to be looking at population control.

Well, the good news is this, globally the number of people aged 0-16 is around 2 billion and on current projections, that is the most people there will ever be in that age bracket. Better healthcare in the developing world means many more people now survive childhood and this has reduced the number of children being born (because by nature, we humans overcompensate). Globally, population growth will purely be due to people living longer, with the population projected to level off at about 11 billion. The problem is no longer people having children at a greater than "replacement" rate.

Of course, we should encourage people globally to reproduce below the replacement rate, to gradually reduce the population and the impact on the planet.

For the UK (and the developed nations as a whole) population growth will be due to a mixture of increased longevity and immigration. Stopping immigration alone will not stop population growth in the UK, due to increased longevity. And barring a "Logan's run" style solution there's not much we can do about that side of the equation.

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