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Fiddler on the roof and everywhere else

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 22 Feb 17 9.46am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Ken Clarke in his statement to the House, said the cost was £30-£50 million. There were 16 Guantanamo men involved. Taking £40 million as the sum paid out (allowing a few million for Ken's lunches) that averages out at £2.5 million per terrorist.

No. Read it properly. He said "the legal battle" could cost up to £50million not that the compensation was £50mill.

You have absolutely no idea how much he was paid and nor do the Daily Mail yet are bandying about a seven figure sum.

 


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 22 Feb 17 9.53am

Originally posted by Kermit8

No. Read it properly. He said "the legal battle" could cost up to £50million not that the compensation was £50mill.

You have absolutely no idea how much he was paid and nor do the Daily Mail yet are bandying about a seven figure sum.

Presumably you accept that they were paid something. How much do you think they deserved to be paid?

 


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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 22 Feb 17 10.32am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Presumably you accept that they were paid something. How much do you think they deserved to be paid?

You're wasting your time... Rather bizarrely, Kermit et al will always defend the terrorist no matter what because the Left hate the west as much as radical Islam.

Edited by Penge Eagle (22 Feb 2017 10.32am)

 

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 22 Feb 17 10.43am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

You're wasting your time... Rather bizarrely, Kermit et al will always defend the terrorist no matter what because the Left hate the west as much as radical Islam.

Edited by Penge Eagle (22 Feb 2017 10.32am)

Ok, you need help here. When attacking someone try not to use contradictions if you want it to stick. You are correct: the radical Wahhabis and Salafists - the terrorists and their sympathisers who would do the world a big favour if they were disappeared - I do hate/despise, as you pointed out, so can't be, and this is where you went wrong with your accusation, a defender of them at the same time, can I?

 


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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 22 Feb 17 10.45am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Presumably you accept that they were paid something. How much do you think they deserved to be paid?

The guilty - £0

The innocent - £££'s

Lawyers would have had their mucky, greedy paws all over this and I wouldn't be surprised if the main amount paid out went to them as their 'fees'

 


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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 22 Feb 17 11.11am

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

You're wasting your time... Rather bizarrely, Kermit et al will always defend the terrorist no matter what because the Left hate the west as much as radical Islam.

Edited by Penge Eagle (22 Feb 2017 10.32am)

On what do you base this accusation?

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 22 Feb 17 11.15am

Originally posted by Kermit8

The guilty - £0

The innocent - £££'s

Lawyers would have had their mucky, greedy paws all over this and I wouldn't be surprised if the main amount paid out went to them as their 'fees'

As you can see, I am no longer in a position to respond.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Feb 17 11.35am

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

You're wasting your time... Rather bizarrely, Kermit et al will always defend the terrorist no matter what because the Left hate the west as much as radical Islam.

Edited by Penge Eagle (22 Feb 2017 10.32am)

Suspected Terrorist at the time. Innocent until proven guilty is one of the oldest and most established British legal principles, along with the right to a trial. Imprisonment without trial, is in violation of UK law going back as far as the magna carta.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Feb 17 11.48am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

'We' dind't imprison anyone, the USA did. We detain lunatics indefinitely, why not detain those lunatics?

Yes, and the US released them, and the UK was compliant by not protecting the legal rights of its citizens, as well as providing assistance in detention and rendition of suspects, who were held without trial, subject to torture and cruel conditions, indefinitely, without trial (or recourse).

The UK had the option, try the suspect as a criminal, or release them. Problem is, if they tried them, then their torture would invalidate evidence against them, and UK complicity in violating the legal rights of its citizens.

There is, in international law, grounds for detention of people during conflict, which is to grant them prisoner of war status. We chose deliberately, as did the US, to ignore that.

Being a terrorist isn't mental illness, as defined in UK law. Terrorism in the UK is a crime. secondly to prove that, you need to have a trial, and the individuals legal team lodge and prove grounds of diminished responsibility.

We don't detain lunatics indefinitely either. People found not guilty on the grounds of dimished responsibility are not imprisoned, they're sectioned under the mental health act, until such time as they're deemed no longer a threat to themselves or others, and capable of re-entry into society (which be remarkably quick in cases where they respond well to medication).

I'm sure you understand the consequences of suspending peoples legal rights entirely, on the basis of suspicion, by bias state party.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Feb 17 11.55am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Presumably you accept that they were paid something. How much do you think they deserved to be paid?

Yes. They had not been convicted of a crime, held without legal representation for years, tortured, held without appeal by their consulate.

Even if the US was holding them, the UK has a legal obligation to its citizens to provide legal council, and protect their rights.

The state failed to honour the rights of its citizens, and in fact deliberately violated those protections due all UK citizens by the state.

The US should have tried these men, or held them as prisoners of war.

Its pretty clear that some of these men were likely guilty. The problem is, due process in the US and UK doesn't work on the basis of 'likely', its about beyond reasonable doubt.

Remember, not all of those released have gone on to commit terrorism.

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 22 Feb 17 11.58am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Yes, and the US released them, and the UK was compliant by not protecting the legal rights of its citizens, as well as providing assistance in detention and rendition of suspects, who were held without trial, subject to torture and cruel conditions, indefinitely, without trial (or recourse).

The UK had the option, try the suspect as a criminal, or release them. Problem is, if they tried them, then their torture would invalidate evidence against them, and UK complicity in violating the legal rights of its citizens.

There is, in international law, grounds for detention of people during conflict, which is to grant them prisoner of war status. We chose deliberately, as did the US, to ignore that.

Being a terrorist isn't mental illness, as defined in UK law. Terrorism in the UK is a crime. secondly to prove that, you need to have a trial, and the individuals legal team lodge and prove grounds of diminished responsibility.

We don't detain lunatics indefinitely either. People found not guilty on the grounds of dimished responsibility are not imprisoned, they're sectioned under the mental health act, until such time as they're deemed no longer a threat to themselves or others, and capable of re-entry into society (which be remarkably quick in cases where they respond well to medication).

I'm sure you understand the consequences of suspending peoples legal rights entirely, on the basis of suspicion, by bias state party.

I don't think we can pretend that we don't bend rules.
Winning a war of any sort usually requires drastic measures. I would like to uphold the principles that this country prides itself in but I can't put the interests of suspected terrorists above our citizens. That is the simple choice that the government and security services have to make.

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 22 Feb 17 12.02pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Yes, and the US released them, and the UK was compliant by not protecting the legal rights of its citizens, as well as providing assistance in detention and rendition of suspects, who were held without trial, subject to torture and cruel conditions, indefinitely, without trial (or recourse).

The UK had the option, try the suspect as a criminal, or release them. Problem is, if they tried them, then their torture would invalidate evidence against them, and UK complicity in violating the legal rights of its citizens.

There is, in international law, grounds for detention of people during conflict, which is to grant them prisoner of war status. We chose deliberately, as did the US, to ignore that.

Being a terrorist isn't mental illness, as defined in UK law. Terrorism in the UK is a crime. secondly to prove that, you need to have a trial, and the individuals legal team lodge and prove grounds of diminished responsibility.

We don't detain lunatics indefinitely either. People found not guilty on the grounds of dimished responsibility are not imprisoned, they're sectioned under the mental health act, until such time as they're deemed no longer a threat to themselves or others, and capable of re-entry into society (which be remarkably quick in cases where they respond well to medication).

I'm sure you understand the consequences of suspending peoples legal rights entirely, on the basis of suspicion, by bias state party.

As you can see, I am no longer in a position to respond.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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