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March 28 2024 3.52pm

'Christianity' vs 'Islam'

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 03 Jul 17 10.54am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Firstly, it can only 'happen' spontaneously, as prior to the big bang, there is no dimension of spacetime. Prior to this, everything exists that exists now - without space and time (see quantum theory).

Now why that occurs (and it might not occur, it might just simply be that we're experiencing it from an internal perspective of existing within space and time - as from high dimensional topology objects in space time are different ie from a fifth dimensional perspective time is occurred not occuring) is the question.

However that 'big bang occured' only applies to a perspective within space-time as a dimension (i.e. we are simply see it as occurring, because we're a part of the process of something that has already occurred for a brief time.

Or if it was an event that causes big bang (and the term causal is reliant on time and space events), such as how dimensions function within a reality, how realities exist etc.

However, none of this requires god, or a creator or event really an event to trigger big bang. We call it big bang, as its a convenient method of explaining a very complex series of theoretical models, which are evidenced by astrophysical research, quantum and relative physics.

What really happens with big bang is that subatomic particles go from being in a null state, to the state we are experiencing them in (which is a state of entropic change that will result in an end state) - but we are also part of that entropic change.

From a 5th or higher state, that 'change' has occurred (much in the same way that we see 2D and 3D models as being constants, the same applies to 4D from a higher dimension).

But none of this requires a god. Prior to big bang everything existed, after big bang everything still existed, and we're a part of that process (briefly).

We're kind of like a Salmon in a stream trying to understand what land is.

This is possibly the longest passage that I have read (apart from Das Kapital) which is almost completely lacking in meaning. Have you considered a career in contemporary art criticism?

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Part Time James's Profile Part Time James Flag 03 Jul 17 10.58am Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

This is possibly the longest passage that I have read (apart from Das Kapital) which is almost completely lacking in meaning. Have you considered a career in contemporary art criticism?

I just assumed that because I didn't understand any of the words longer than 4 letters that it was dead clever and sciencey. I don't know what to believe any more to be honest. Maybe I ought to go to church after all.

 




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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 03 Jul 17 10.59am

Originally posted by Part Time James

I think we're all a big mistake. We are like the consequence of the infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters. Atoms that have come together and just so happened to have become a human race on a planet. An almost infinitely unlikely thing to have happened, but not quite infinitely unlikely/impossible.

Like Jamie says, because we can't explain that or reconcile the fact that something so coincidental could've happened, we've come up with some bloke that did it. Because Science is too complicated it must've been some bloke. And because to not be able to reconcile that there is no reason for us to exist at all, we've had to appease our fears by assuming we are part of some bloke's plan.

Well good for you if you're able to believe in some bloke who has a plan for you, but you'll be born and you'll die either way.

I doubt, if God exists, God is a 'bloke', or a 'bird' for that matter. But if God does exist, God would be quite 'some bloke' and the 'plan' would be quite some plan. But good for you if you're able to believe that everything just sprang into existence of its own accord.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Part Time James's Profile Part Time James Flag 03 Jul 17 11.04am Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

I doubt, if God exists, God is a 'bloke', or a 'bird' for that matter. But if God does exist, God would be quite 'some bloke' and the 'plan' would be quite some plan. But good for you if you're able to believe that everything just sprang into existence of its own accord.

Well I hope I haven't offended you. I refer to "some bloke" because a lot of religions portray God in that way. Equally God could be a unicorn or an ice cream van or a cloud or whatever, just very few religions have thought outside of the box in that way.

 




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View Part Time James's Profile Part Time James Flag 03 Jul 17 11.08am Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Also, good for you if you can believe God sprang into existence of its own accord but can't believe anything else did

Edited by Part Time James (03 Jul 2017 11.09am)

 




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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 03 Jul 17 11.18am

Originally posted by Part Time James

Also, good for you if you can believe God sprang into existence of its own accord but can't believe anything else did

Edited by Part Time James (03 Jul 2017 11.09am)

I'm not even saying I believe a god exists, I don't know. It's just that the instant belief given to various 'scientific' theories that come and go make me smile. As for God springing into existence, if God is omnipotent, God can do whatever God likes - spring in and out of existence, always have existed, change the past, present and future, appear in the guise of an ice cream van ...

Edited by hedgehog50 (03 Jul 2017 11.20am)

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Part Time James's Profile Part Time James Flag 03 Jul 17 11.23am Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

I'm not even saying I believe a god exists, I don't know. It's just that the instant belief given to various 'scientific' theories that come and go make me smile. As for God springing into existence, if God is omnipotent, God can do whatever God likes -
spring in and out of existence, change the past, present and future, appear in the guise of an ice cream van ...

Edited by hedgehog50 (03 Jul 2017 11.19am)

Well I can't argue with that because if I could then I'd be claiming to solve a riddle no one ever has or will solve.

My actual stance is complete apathy really rather than hanging my belief in one or another unprovable explanation. It just doesn't worry me. I don't need to constantly remind myself about how gravity works to stop myself floating off my sofa and I don't think believing in XYZ over ABC will make a damn bit of difference to the outcome of my own mortality.

 




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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 03 Jul 17 11.52am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

This is possibly the longest passage that I have read (apart from Das Kapital) which is almost completely lacking in meaning. Have you considered a career in contemporary art criticism?

Ok, language defines our ability to understand reality. But our language is also defined entirely by our reality. We don't even have a language other than maths that can reasonably explain higher and lower dimensions, quantum mechanics. In fact our languages posit everything in relation to space (locations) and time (past, future, present).

Take those out of the equation and explaining existence without the concepts of time and space, gets rather difficult to comprehend. However, we do have evidence, that everything that makes up our existence, including us, existed prior to 'big bang' and exists across all dimesions - it simply changes form.

So "prior" to big bang (which may only may be occuring in terms of a position within the fourth dimension), everything that makes up all of our universe, existed in a different state, that is one in which time and space are not relevant concepts.

The process of big bang is a transition in which subatomic particles react in space-time, from the point at which space time (4D) starts (the end point say the third dimension) and the point at which the 5D starts. And it only appears as occurring to us, because we are a part of that transition from point to superpositional point (which from a 5D point has already occurred).

We are part of space and time in a very fundamental way, not separate from it (but the physical components that construct us are made from subatomic particles that always will exist.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 03 Jul 17 11.54am

Originally posted by Part Time James

I just assumed that because I didn't understand any of the words longer than 4 letters that it was dead clever and sciencey. I don't know what to believe any more to be honest. Maybe I ought to go to church after all.

Don't believe in anything, instead rely on knowing?

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Part Time James's Profile Part Time James Flag 03 Jul 17 11.56am Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Don't believe in anything, instead rely on knowing?

Sorry, you're still going to have to break it down for me

 




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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 03 Jul 17 12.00pm

Incidently, I don't believe that science and theology are relevant to each other and to apply one to the other is a misunderstanding of the concepts of knowledge and the paradims of knowledge.

Its like trying to explain a poetry using biology. The problem really is the idea of fundamentalism: the instance that a book written thousands of years ago is literally, rather than figurative.

Fundamentalism has an issue with evolution and big bang, because they challenge a simplistic truth. One that god created man and secondly that god created the universe.

In fact science doesn't really deal with theological concepts, not because they might not be true, but that they cannot be true in a scientific model of reality - in the way that say the Bible posits them.

Its odd, because it doesn't really matter if God created man, or the universe - as to a Christian, the teachings of Jesus are what are important really, not the truth of god.

Faith is the belief in the truth of god that sustains the teachings of Jesus. It doesn't need evolution or the big bang theory to do that.

All that's undermined is the fundamentalist position that the bible is absolute truth and must be adhered to utterly.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 03 Jul 17 12.01pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Sorry, you're still going to have to break it down for me

Basically nothing is true, everything is permitted. Its really all about people arguing about what is acceptable to do and believe and more importantly, what is acceptable for others to believe and do.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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