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Kermit8 Hevon 28 May 17 5.09pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Yeah, it's not as though the brightest can't be catered for from within a comprehensive system. Of course they can be catered for but they are going to have a better academic education at a Grammar than they are at a Comprehensive if they are a very clever student. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 28 May 17 5.09pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yeah, it's not as though the brightest can't be catered for from within a comprehensive system.

Of course they can be catered for but they are going to have a better academic education at a Grammar than they are at a Comprehensive if they are a very clever student.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays Online 28 May 17 5.11pm
Originally posted by Cucking Funt Ahhhh, the "middle class". Defined as what, exactly? In many cases, it comprises people who used to be "working class", a step up facilitated by, amongst other things, the existence of grammar schools. Or do you have a wider objection to the "middle class"? Not an objection no...It's more about what I see the role of the state in terms of how it treats children....I'd define middle class is defined by a combination of your income and assets relative to the median. I don't see the state...an entity meant to represent everyone....as doing its job when it is used to favour the class system. Besides selection is not always a test of innate intelligence anyway. Children who are coached are more likely to pass the test. Research has shown that 22% are wrongly attributed, ie some failed who would have passed and vice versa. Selection takes no account of the fact that children develop at different rates. It assumes that ability is fixed at 10+ and that children have therefore to have a different curriculum and schooling On this issue I'm a red Tory. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

28 May 17 5.11pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

Ahhhh, the "middle class". Defined as what, exactly? In many cases, it comprises people who used to be "working class", a step up facilitated by, amongst other things, the existence of grammar schools. Or do you have a wider objection to the "middle class"?

Not an objection no...It's more about what I see the role of the state in terms of how it treats children....I'd define middle class is defined by a combination of your income and assets relative to the median.

I don't see the state...an entity meant to represent everyone....as doing its job when it is used to favour the class system.

Besides selection is not always a test of innate intelligence anyway. Children who are coached are more likely to pass the test.

Research has shown that 22% are wrongly attributed, ie some failed who would have passed and vice versa.

Selection takes no account of the fact that children develop at different rates. It assumes that ability is fixed at 10+ and that children have therefore to have a different curriculum and schooling

On this issue I'm a red Tory.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 28 May 17 5.12pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Have you actually researched the effects of Grammars on social mobility? I was a teacher and looked into it during my PGCE. Grammars mainly help the middle class. I wasn't impressed by the claims....the claims aren't born out by the actual statistics. I'm for developing the best system for meritocracy for everyone. I don't see Grammars as helping. Had it occurred that 'middle class' kids do better because of their parents attitude toward their education and not money? I sent my kids to grammars in large part to avoid the dregs that often populate state schools. The actual education is not the only consideration. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (28 May 2017 5.13pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

28 May 17 5.12pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Have you actually researched the effects of Grammars on social mobility? I was a teacher and looked into it during my PGCE. Grammars mainly help the middle class.

I wasn't impressed by the claims....the claims aren't born out by the actual statistics.

I'm for developing the best system for meritocracy for everyone. I don't see Grammars as helping.

Had it occurred that 'middle class' kids do better because of their parents attitude toward their education and not money?
I sent my kids to grammars in large part to avoid the dregs that often populate state schools. The actual education is not the only consideration.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (28 May 2017 5.13pm)

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Stirlingsays Online 28 May 17 5.15pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Of course they can be catered for but they are going to have a better academic education at a Grammar than they are at a Comprehensive if they are a very clever student. In our system yes....Though different systems around the world show that if you design a comprehensive system correctly then it will provide the state with a better all round educated workforce. When you take the top talent out of the system of course what is left is going to be worse. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

28 May 17 5.15pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Of course they can be catered for but they are going to have a better academic education at a Grammar than they are at a Comprehensive if they are a very clever student.

In our system yes....Though different systems around the world show that if you design a comprehensive system correctly then it will provide the state with a better all round educated workforce.

When you take the top talent out of the system of course what is left is going to be worse.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 28 May 17 5.16pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays So revealing that you find that boring. Corbyn has nothing but appeasement to offer the British people in tackling a continuing and increasing Islamic terror problem. He can't even bring himself to call it what it is. The Tories are half way to pathetic but the far left are much worse. Abbott talking about ot this morning [Link] the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 28 May 17 5.16pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

So revealing that you find that boring.

Corbyn has nothing but appeasement to offer the British people in tackling a continuing and increasing Islamic terror problem. He can't even bring himself to call it what it is.

The Tories are half way to pathetic but the far left are much worse.

Abbott talking about ot this morning

[Link]

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Kermit8 Hevon 28 May 17 5.19pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays In our system yes....Though different systems around the world show that if you design a comprehensive system correctly then it will provide the state with a better all round educated workforce. When you take the top talent out of the system of course what is left is going to be worse. I totally agree if we are talking about a fair and sensible country like Finland but we are not. We are talking about the U.K and its backward dog eat dog mentality. The only way to achieve what you correctly aspire to is for a full-on social revolution. Ain't going to happen unless the right-wing politicians disappear sharp-ish. It's not their bag. Never will be. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 28 May 17 5.19pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

In our system yes....Though different systems around the world show that if you design a comprehensive system correctly then it will provide the state with a better all round educated workforce.

When you take the top talent out of the system of course what is left is going to be worse.

I totally agree if we are talking about a fair and sensible country like Finland but we are not. We are talking about the U.K and its backward dog eat dog mentality. The only way to achieve what you correctly aspire to is for a full-on social revolution. Ain't going to happen unless the right-wing politicians disappear sharp-ish. It's not their bag. Never will be.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays Online 28 May 17 5.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Had it occurred that 'middle class' kids do better because of their parents attitude toward their education and not money? I sent my kids to grammars in large part to avoid the dregs that often populate state schools. The actual education is not the only consideration. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (28 May 2017 5.13pm) Yep, I agree, it is definitely not just money....'Good parents' and the family culture they instill in their children make or break the whole thing. Parents are vital to a successful school. Don't get me wrong....if I were designing a new educational system Grammar schools would just be a part of what I wouldn't have. The comprehensive system has many problems....But part of the problem is because a lot of talent...teachers and stakeholders get to walk away. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

28 May 17 5.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (28 May 2017 5.13pm)

Yep, I agree, it is definitely not just money....'Good parents' and the family culture they instill in their children make or break the whole thing. Parents are vital to a successful school.

Don't get me wrong....if I were designing a new educational system Grammar schools would just be a part of what I wouldn't have.

The comprehensive system has many problems....But part of the problem is because a lot of talent...teachers and stakeholders get to walk away.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays Online 28 May 17 5.42pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 I totally agree if we are talking about a fair and sensible country like Finland but we are not. We are talking about the U.K and its backward dog eat dog mentality. The only way to achieve what you correctly aspire to is for a full-on social revolution. Ain't going to happen unless the right-wing politicians disappear sharp-ish. It's not their bag. Never will be. I think May is more red Tory than most....But I agree that the system is riddled with self interest. I'm not against self interest in many areas....I'm just not sure that the education system.....how we treat the nation's children...is the right forum for it. Whatever produces the best educated workforce....that's what we need. Get rid of the human rights lawyers and....well there are so many things. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 May 2017 5.46pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

28 May 17 5.42pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

I think May is more red Tory than most....But I agree that the system is riddled with self interest.

I'm not against self interest in many areas....I'm just not sure that the education system.....how we treat the nation's children...is the right forum for it.

Whatever produces the best educated workforce....that's what we need.

Get rid of the human rights lawyers and....well there are so many things.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 May 2017 5.46pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays Online 28 May 17 5.45pm
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch Abbott talking about ot this morning [Link] I'll give her this, her afro as afros go, was rather splendid. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

28 May 17 5.45pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

Abbott talking about ot this morning

[Link]

I'll give her this, her afro as afros go, was rather splendid.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 28 May 17 5.51pm
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch Abbott talking about ot this morning [Link] Surely not the same 'Diane Abbott' who has voted 30 times against increasing the authorities powers to fight terrorism.
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 28 May 17 5.51pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

Abbott talking about ot this morning

[Link]

Surely not the same 'Diane Abbott' who has voted 30 times against increasing the authorities powers to fight terrorism.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 28 May 17 7.12pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Decisions on this need to be taken based on evidence not anecdotes. As previously mentioned evidence globally shows selective education does not deliver the best possible outcome for a school system. Northern Ireland has 45 per cent of youngsters going to grammar schools - the grammar school serving the Falls Road area has 38 per cent of its 1,180 pupils on free school meals, hardly elitist. Singarpore has a system almost identical to our old 11-plus system and Andreas Schleicher, head of education at OECD, praises that country as being not only the most successful education system in the world but also that it achieves excellence without wide differences between children from wealthy and disadvantaged families. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 28 May 17 7.12pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Decisions on this need to be taken based on evidence not anecdotes. As previously mentioned evidence globally shows selective education does not deliver the best possible outcome for a school system.

Northern Ireland has 45 per cent of youngsters going to grammar schools - the grammar school serving the Falls Road area has 38 per cent of its 1,180 pupils on free school meals, hardly elitist.
Singarpore has a system almost identical to our old 11-plus system and Andreas Schleicher, head of education at OECD, praises that country as being not only the most successful education system in the world but also that it achieves excellence without wide differences between children from wealthy and disadvantaged families.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Stirlingsays Online 28 May 17 7.25pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Northern Ireland has 45 per cent of youngsters going to grammar schools - the grammar school serving the Falls Road area has 38 per cent of its 1,180 pupils on free school meals, hardly elitist. Singarpore has a system almost identical to our old 11-plus system and Andreas Schleicher, head of education at OECD, praises that country as being not only the most successful education system in the world but also that it achieves excellence without wide differences between children from wealthy and disadvantaged families. What is the point of this? The best attainment scores in the world are from the comprehensive system that Finland have. That treats all of its children far better. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

28 May 17 7.25pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

What is the point of this? The best attainment scores in the world are from the comprehensive system that Finland have.

That treats all of its children far better.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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