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April 25 2024 1.20pm

It's all gone quite on the left

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 09 Aug 17 3.06pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

If we take a basic assumption that someone at the bottom is earning 20k a year in a corporate company - then the top bracket is 400k a year - Even with Bonus schemes maybe 1%

And behind them, are any number of 'next generation' high flyers waiting for a chance to replace them

Which isn't likely to create a 'massive exodus of talent', and of course where would they go; the demand for top level executives isn't really going to be well suited by a deluge of individuals.

In truth I think you'd need to make exceptions for legitimate investors, owners and shareholders earnings and tackle that separately.

Sure investors could go elsewhere - but then the government would need to restrict their access to British Markets and profits from the UK.

Its only really those at the very top that are likely to be earning 400k per year....

Nice idea....not going to work.

Can't you see that the moment you restrict that access and profits you are giving out the message....look elsewhere for your next investment. You just aren't going to get the same levels of investment and hence jobs. That then has a waterfall effect..... The lists of competitors for that investment are numerous.

I like the idea of your first paragraph but I know that it doesn't work.

You may support forcing people into silence at the risk of them losing their jobs in companies for whatever 'wrong think' you list...but the moment you tell a company how much they can earn, those jobs aren't going to be there for you to impose your ideology on in the first place.

You might be in a position not to suffer from that....But I come from a council estate and I taught council estate kids and I very much disagree with opportunity being taken away because 'progressives' think fairy land can exist in the business world.


 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Aug 17 3.51pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Nice idea....not going to work.

Can't you see that the moment you restrict that access and profits you are giving out the message....look elsewhere for your next investment. You just aren't going to get the same levels of investment and hence jobs. That then has a waterfall effect..... The lists of competitors for that investment are numerous.

I like the idea of your first paragraph but I know that it doesn't work.

You may support forcing people into silence at the risk of them losing their jobs in companies for whatever 'wrong think' you list...but the moment you tell a company how much they can earn, those jobs aren't going to be there for you to impose your ideology on in the first place.

You might be in a position not to suffer from that....But I come from a council estate and I taught council estate kids and I very much disagree with opportunity being taken away because 'progressives' think fairy land can exist in the business world.


Like I said, I think you'd need to make exception for people who are investors in companies, shareholders, partners etc. because they have an additional financial commitment to the firm and consequently additional risks.

I like the idea, but you'd need to specifically allow for people to earn income off their investments as being separate from their salary. The commitment of time is different from personal financial risk. I don't think you can see investments in the same light as Salaried income from working - nor should we.

If I earned 200k and then my investment pays me 400k in a year, I don't think it would be fair to consider that 400k salary.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Aug 17 5.37pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

That's not correct Tony Blair did everything possible to avoid war which The USA wanted without the UN.

Sadaam was required by UN resolutions to state that he did not have weapons of mass destruction which he repeatedly failed not to do. Why we don't know as in fact he did not have.

All he had to do was send his representative to cross a NY street and say that.

That would have meant the UK not being at war as he had complied with UN resolutions.

If you don't answer a summons you will be presumed guilty that's true for all of us.

Tony Blair is a lawyer it is his training and what he believes in.

Sadaam was a monster but not cunning just stupid.

Tony Blair also accepted intelligence which turned out to be wrong so be careful Prime Ministers of just accepting what MI5 etc. say.

Although you can't do that as they will say they can't jeopardise their secrecy. Nothing like having your cake and eating it is there.


Hahahhahahahahaha... yeah right. The other one has bells on. The UK and US are in the business of liberating countries from oppressive regimes....

Even if the Iraqi's had sent their representatives and allowed UN weapon inspectors back in, the US was already beating a drum about them hiding weapons of mass destruction.

And then after all that solid convincing evidence turned out to be 'a piles of very selected lies from very bias sources, that even the intelligence agencies were questioning, it was all about regime change.

Iraq was about pushing huge revenues of government capital into private industry, securing oil reserves and distributing very lucrative contracts to private firms.


 


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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 09 Aug 17 6.01pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Hahahhahahahahaha... yeah right. The other one has bells on. The UK and US are in the business of liberating countries from oppressive regimes....

Even if the Iraqi's had sent their representatives and allowed UN weapon inspectors back in, the US was already beating a drum about them hiding weapons of mass destruction.

And then after all that solid convincing evidence turned out to be 'a piles of very selected lies from very bias sources, that even the intelligence agencies were questioning, it was all about regime change.

Iraq was about pushing huge revenues of government capital into private industry, securing oil reserves and distributing very lucrative contracts to private firms.


Apart from Kurdish operated fields in the north, most Iraqi oil is state operated. China is Iraq's largest customer by some margin.

Edited by chris123 (09 Aug 2017 6.17pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 09 Aug 17 6.01pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Iraq was about pushing huge revenues of government capital into private industry, securing oil reserves and distributing very lucrative contracts to private firms.


If oil were a major factor for prosecuting war in Iraq, it stands to reason the United States would be getting substantial amounts of it.

In 2013 the overwhelming percentage of American imported oil did not come from the Middle East. Canada and Latin America provide the United States with 34.7 percent of their imported oil. Africa provides another 10.3 percent. The entire Persian Gulf, led by Saudi Arabia at 8.1 percent, provides them with a total of 12.9 percent of their imported oil.

As recently as December 2012, Iraq provided the United States with approximately 14.3 million barrels of oil out of a total of about 298 million barrels imported, or 4.8 percent of their total imports. Rather pointedly for your argument, America was importing the highest amount of oil from Iraq before they went to war to oust Saddam Hussein.

If America went to war in Iraq mostly for oil, it would stand to reason that they would maintain a stranglehold on both their supply and production. Ten years after the war began, China has emerged as one of the main beneficiaries of a relatively stable Iraqi government and a country that, after two decades, is poised to become the world's third largest oil exporter. Trade between Iraq and China has doubled almost 34 times, soaring from $517 million in 2002, to $17.5 billion by the end of last year.

As for the war in Iraq in general, people can disagree about whether removing Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do. And they can certainly question the necessity of nation-building. But it is simply revisionist history to suggest that anti-oil Democratic politicians, weren't every bit as concerned with the danger the Saddam Hussein regime posed as Republicans were. Authorizing the use of force was a bipartisan effort based on a shared if faulty interpretation of the same security intelligence.

As for oil, if getting it was one of the primary reasons the west liberated Iraq, subsequent developments have demonstrated that effort was a colossal failure.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Aug 17 6.07pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Hahahhahahahahaha... yeah right. The other one has bells on. The UK and US are in the business of liberating countries from oppressive regimes....

Even if the Iraqi's had sent their representatives and allowed UN weapon inspectors back in, the US was already beating a drum about them hiding weapons of mass destruction.

And then after all that solid convincing evidence turned out to be 'a piles of very selected lies from very bias sources, that even the intelligence agencies were questioning, it was all about regime change.

Iraq was about pushing huge revenues of government capital into private industry, securing oil reserves and distributing very lucrative contracts to private firms.

Estimates of the cost to the USA of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are between 1 and 4 trillion dollars, plus the loss of lives of course. Is that covered by your 'lucrative contracts'?

 


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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Online Flag Croydon 09 Aug 17 7.21pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

I was surprised at JM mocking my post and I repeat as it is concise and only pointing out 1 thing which all the reports and inquiries miss.

If Sadaam had complied with UN resolutions and not ignored them all the UK would not have been legally able to go to war.

Sadaam did not have weapons of mass destruction and all that was necessary was to say that at the UN, that would have complied with the UN. resolutions.

The attorney general would have advised that there was no legal basis for war and in fact I am sure it was the govts. position.

Tony Blair is an experienced lawyer he would not go to war if UN resolutions were complied with, as a resulting war would be illegal and he would be responsible.

Why did Sadaam not comply with this simple resolution when he did not have WOMD anyway??

TB prosecuting a war when UN resolutions were complied with? I don't think so.

Ok the USA would have by-passed the UN but Blair took the matter to the UN to make the case for war water-tight.

If you don't reply or acknowledge the law there is no option but to find you guilty.

 

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View davenotamonkey's Profile davenotamonkey Flag 09 Aug 17 10.03pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by serial thriller


Poland! Wow...

It's actually funny that you compare the two. The Polish parliament has recently been trying to alter the constitution by electing members to the Supreme Court themselves, rather than having them as independents. Pretty similar to what's going on in Venezuela.

The problem with talking about Venezuela is no one who wants to parade it as a symbol of Socialism gone wrong ever wants to seriously discuss it. Venezuela has a very, very complicated establishment and constitution, with many competing interests vying for position. Arguably, it has never been a Socialist country (the wealth of the richest actually increased under Chavez, even as they were trying to organise a coup against him).

Maduro may be a bit authoritarian, but you would have to ask what the alternative is.
If Venezuela were to switch to, say, a Columbian style of oil ownership, the social security of millions of its citizens would be eradicated.

Could you clarify how Poland's legislative change (which was part of the ruling party's election manifesto) differs from the German* parliament appointing judges to it's highest court? Actually... don't even bother. You're just sucking deep and hard on the pro-EU anti-anything-EUsceptic propaganda that Poland = Bad because Poland = right.

* Or Sweden, or the US, or the Netherlands, or Austria.

Here's an example article of how Germany appoints judges:

[Link]

Poland wants the ability to do the same. This initiative, proposed by a right-wing government, automatically triggers the EUloons, as they cannot stand it if a nation state thus-aligned begins to exercise it's democratic and sovereign rights. Hence all the (on-doubt) Soros et al. funded EUwailing.

I would suggest the EU take Poland to the European Court of Justice, so they can face the judges appointed by... um... oh, member state governments. Oops

As to the rest of your post - the old "it's not really socialism" trope wears a bit thin when Corbyn et al have in the past praised it as the enlightened way forwards. Now listen to the weasel-worded prikc:

[Link]

Swap/replace with his IRA spiel. Same old.

And yeah, Maduro is indeed a "bit" authoritarian, but (silly me) I would ask that the alternative is to NOT "disappear" your political opponents.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 10 Aug 17 5.31am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Like I said, I think you'd need to make exception for people who are investors in companies, shareholders, partners etc. because they have an additional financial commitment to the firm and consequently additional risks.

I like the idea, but you'd need to specifically allow for people to earn income off their investments as being separate from their salary. The commitment of time is different from personal financial risk. I don't think you can see investments in the same light as Salaried income from working - nor should we.

If I earned 200k and then my investment pays me 400k in a year, I don't think it would be fair to consider that 400k salary.

Just to clarify. I prefer and agree with these aims from an ethical standpoint. The changes from pay inequality from say the late sixties to now is dramatic. These restrictions would be the better system. I just remain to be convinced in terms of practical effectiveness in terms of business confidence and effect. I know the free market works on many levels...but that the system around it isn't about fairness.

I'm definitely less confidence in talking around this field.

I'm probably of the view of more effective tax collection....perhaps if their could be harmonizing with the EU to that aim. Though due to the EU's aggressive stance towards the city...which is a significant proportion of our tax base...I would be very careful.


Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Aug 2017 5.39am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 10 Aug 17 1.12pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

I was surprised at JM mocking my post and I repeat as it is concise and only pointing out 1 thing which all the reports and inquiries miss.

If Sadaam had complied with UN resolutions and not ignored them all the UK would not have been legally able to go to war.

Sadaam did not have weapons of mass destruction and all that was necessary was to say that at the UN, that would have complied with the UN. resolutions.

The attorney general would have advised that there was no legal basis for war and in fact I am sure it was the govts. position.

Tony Blair is an experienced lawyer he would not go to war if UN resolutions were complied with, as a resulting war would be illegal and he would be responsible.

Why did Sadaam not comply with this simple resolution when he did not have WOMD anyway??

TB prosecuting a war when UN resolutions were complied with? I don't think so.

Ok the USA would have by-passed the UN but Blair took the matter to the UN to make the case for war water-tight.

If you don't reply or acknowledge the law there is no option but to find you guilty.

Which the UN veto'd, and the US and UK had no real authority to enforce against the Security Councils vote. Also, the pretext for war was selective intelligence that just fitted Blairs agenda, and any counter intelligence was ignored.

But the reality is that the evidence for WMD in Iraq was an utter shame of informants and sources picked deliberately to build a case for war - That the Prime Minister sold the UK as 'certainity' when at best it was questionable.

Able to strike the UK in 45 minutes... The only WMD found (in 2005) were unfit for even storage, let alone use, and seemed to have been in the ownership of a single individual and the US and UK purchased these from that person.

Bear in mind the UN Weapons inspectors countered that certainity. Interestingly, during the late 90s, when the Inspectors reported that Iraq was not complying with the UN weapons inspectors - the US and UK did nothing, and in fact hampered the UN from taking further action.

Its important to remember that it was the UK and US that asserted that Iraq had retained weapons of mass destruction, which the UN Inspectors could find no evidence of, and that Iraq claimed it had already destroyed. This was the basis of trying to get the UN Resolution 1441 for military action engaged. That the UN inspectors couldn't find something, that Iraq had claimed was destroyed - which turned out to be true.

So when you say Iraq wasn't complying, there reality is the UK and US were pursuing a war based on the inability of Iraq to prove something didn't exist, which the UN Inspectors themselves said, did not exist - Which of course meant that Iraq wasn't complying because they couldn't prove that something didn't exist...

Yeah, not dodgy at all.

You really think Blair was trying to avoid a war, the Bush administration was looking for reasons to invade Iraq from Sept 11 2001, the Blair went along to legitimise it.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 10 Aug 17 1.15pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Just to clarify. I prefer and agree with these aims from an ethical standpoint. The changes from pay inequality from say the late sixties to now is dramatic. These restrictions would be the better system. I just remain to be convinced in terms of practical effectiveness in terms of business confidence and effect. I know the free market works on many levels...but that the system around it isn't about fairness.

I'm definitely less confidence in talking around this field.

I'm probably of the view of more effective tax collection....perhaps if their could be harmonizing with the EU to that aim. Though due to the EU's aggressive stance towards the city...which is a significant proportion of our tax base...I would be very careful.


Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Aug 2017 5.39am)

My primary concern would be that it would be an excuse for companies to pay people less at the upper end of the pay scale - Sorry Gerrard, we like you, we love what your doing, but we can't afford to pay the entire minimum wage staff more, so we can't offer you more than 300k and nor can anyone else....

Because capitalists tend to react to ideological issues, with pragmatic resolutions - look at how people reduce their tax burdens - That's the pragmatism of capitalism, its very good at exploiting loopholes.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View serial thriller's Profile serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 10 Aug 17 1.38pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Could you clarify how Poland's legislative change (which was part of the ruling party's election manifesto) differs from the German* parliament appointing judges to it's highest court? Actually... don't even bother. You're just sucking deep and hard on the pro-EU anti-anything-EUsceptic propaganda that Poland = Bad because Poland = right.

* Or Sweden, or the US, or the Netherlands, or Austria.

Here's an example article of how Germany appoints judges:

[Link]

Poland wants the ability to do the same. This initiative, proposed by a right-wing government, automatically triggers the EUloons, as they cannot stand it if a nation state thus-aligned begins to exercise it's democratic and sovereign rights. Hence all the (on-doubt) Soros et al. funded EUwailing.

I would suggest the EU take Poland to the European Court of Justice, so they can face the judges appointed by... um... oh, member state governments. Oops

As to the rest of your post - the old "it's not really socialism" trope wears a bit thin when Corbyn et al have in the past praised it as the enlightened way forwards. Now listen to the weasel-worded prikc:

[Link]

Swap/replace with his IRA spiel. Same old.

And yeah, Maduro is indeed a "bit" authoritarian, but (silly me) I would ask that the alternative is to NOT "disappear" your political opponents.

You've somehow managed to spend a whole post attacking me for being pro-EU, even though I didn't vote in the referendum and in general am very sceptical of it as an institution.

Let's get back to the thread topic. Maduro is, evidently, leading the country towards dictatorship. He has postponed three elections in the past few years and has threatened to use the army had he not won the latest one. That's sh*t politics, and from what I've read and heard, many of the drivers of Chavismo have turned away from him and gone back to grassroots community projects.

But another interesting poll I read showed the approval ratings of South American governments. Maduro is on 20%, which is incredibly low, but still higher than the governments of Mexico, Brazil and Columbia. Again, why is it that this thread is so empty of knowledge about these countries?

Because while they are irrelevant, Venezuela is supposedly more significant because it is symbolic of Socialism's failure, and thus people starving and dying on the streets in Caracas is evidence against Corbyn in this country. I'm sorry, but this argument is f*cking nonsense.

Venezuela's economy is driven by a 97% reliance on oil. It has thousand year old indigenous communities. It suffered under centuries of colonial rule, and until Chavez, the majority of the country lived in poverty. To compare it to Britain, and the form of Socialism which Corbyn is suggesting, is simplistic red-scare crap.

Despite it all, I will defend the social policies of Chavez. He raised literacy levels, gave people access to healthcare, subsidised food and improved the rights of women and the LGBT community. Socialism in action.

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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