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March 28 2024 1.04pm

Confederate Statues

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 17 Aug 17 6.37pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Yeah I bet people love seeing reminders of how their grandparents were slaves whenever they go to the park, and how many people fought to keep them as slaves.

I know I'd like to be reminded whilst having my lunch, about how my grandfather was owned.

I notice however there doesn't seem to be too much focus in the 'history and culture' of the south about just how wrong they were about slavery, jim crow laws, lynchings, fighting against the civil rights movement etc. Surely we should have these national monuments right out where everyone can see them, in popular public parks across the south.

But a lot of statues to those 'Good old boys' who fought to keep it.

Snowflake nonsense. I am surprised this comes from you as you obviously have a historical bent.

History is not kind, perfect or equal. If you airbrush it, what purpose does that fulfill?

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 17 Aug 17 6.41pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I'm all for remembering slavery and segregation - Its just that I'd rather not do it through iconography that depicts the people who wanted it, rather than those that suffered because of it.

I went to Auschwitz - Not a statue commemorating the leaders of the Nazis - They managed to remember the holocaust without a statue of a proud Nazi Commandant in full glorious pose.

I'll stick to Primo Levi.

The Holocaust was a genocide of one group by an enemy. We don't want to forget the Nazis because they are a symbol of where you get to if you allow prejudice created by self-interest to go unbridled. That story is told by the victors.
Slavery helped facilitate the modern world and as unpalatable as that is, it is an undeniable fact of history and one that directly relates to today.
Slavery is an integral part of history which was legal and accepted as normal at that time in history. To airbrush out that fact would be foolish for reasons previously discussed and to completely vilify those that wanted it to continue would be judging their attitudes by modern standards.
I see no point in the retrospective demonisation of historical figures as it serves no purpose beyond political tokenism and pandering to stupidity.

You have to ask yourself where you draw the line.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (17 Aug 2017 6.43pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 17 Aug 17 6.46pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I'm all for remembering slavery and segregation - Its just that I'd rather not do it through iconography that depicts the people who wanted it, rather than those that suffered because of it.

I went to Auschwitz - Not a statue commemorating the leaders of the Nazis - They managed to remember the holocaust without a statue of a proud Nazi Commandant in full glorious pose.

I'll stick to Primo Levi.

Yeah but, I know off the top of my head that Germany does have monuments of world war two generals.....Rommel for example.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View coulsdoneagle's Profile coulsdoneagle Flag London 17 Aug 17 6.53pm Send a Private Message to coulsdoneagle Add coulsdoneagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yeah but, I know off the top of my head that Germany does have monuments of world war two generals.....Rommel for example.

Yeah but America also has statues of Jefferson Davis and parks and high schools and streets named after him and some states celebrate his birthday as a national holiday. Not really the same as Rommel. More similar to Germany keeping statues of Hitler up.


I don't understand the point that lots of people are making, how on earth is removing a statue 'airbrushing history' if anything it's confronting it and making it more relavent in today's world.

This history has a place in America, that place is not as a sign of celebration and vindication through statues and public memorials, but in education and museums and being viewed in the correct context.

Edited by coulsdoneagle (17 Aug 2017 6.54pm)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 17 Aug 17 7.02pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by coulsdoneagle

Yeah but America also has statues of Jefferson Davis and parks and high schools and streets named after him and some states celebrate his birthday as a national holiday. Not really the same as Rommel. More similar to Germany keeping statues of Hitler up.


I don't understand the point that lots of people are making, how on earth is removing a statue 'airbrushing history' if anything it's confronting it and making it more relavent in today's world.

This history has a place in America, that place is not as a sign of celebration and vindication through statues and public memorials, but in education and museums and being viewed in the correct context.

Edited by coulsdoneagle (17 Aug 2017 6.54pm)

But that is surely for the majority to decide, not a group of self interested politicians.

If you take these kinds of retrospective judgements to their limit, where will it end?

Do we ban The Dukes of Hazzard next?

When you make decisions, you should think them through.

 

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wordup Flag 17 Aug 17 7.06pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Snowflake nonsense. I am surprised this comes from you as you obviously have a historical bent.

History is not kind, perfect or equal. If you airbrush it, what purpose does that fulfill?

Most of these statues were placed several decades after the civil war, at the height of KKK activity more for political than historical reasons. Their very presence was a statement to others rather than a lesson to learn from the past. I'm not one to say that they should be airbrushed out, but many were certainly graffitied in.

If people become overly attached some are possibly as attached to the message as they are the monument, hence the type of person who showed up to defend it. On the other hand if individuals decide to deface or destroy they should be arrested as they are not the voice of the community or elected body. It should ideally be down to local communities to decide their future.

Interestingly General Robert E. Lee was invited to attend a meeting to plan granite statues in 1869. His reply: " “My engagements will not permit me to be present, & I believe if there I could not add anything material to the information existing on the subject. I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife & to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered.”

There's more than one way to learn from history, I'm sure he'd agree.


Edited by wordup (17 Aug 2017 8.21pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 17 Aug 17 7.07pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by coulsdoneagle

Yeah but America also has statues of Jefferson Davis and parks and high schools and streets named after him and some states celebrate his birthday as a national holiday. Not really the same as Rommel. More similar to Germany keeping statues of Hitler up.


I don't understand the point that lots of people are making, how on earth is removing a statue 'airbrushing history' if anything it's confronting it and making it more relavent in today's world.

This history has a place in America, that place is not as a sign of celebration and vindication through statues and public memorials, but in education and museums and being viewed in the correct context.

Edited by coulsdoneagle (17 Aug 2017 6.54pm)

Hitler is on a massive scale in terms of deaths, but I take your point.

If the local population don't want it there, it shouldn't be there. I'm cool with that. Museums and all that.

However, people tearing stuff down and spitting....it doesn't help.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Aug 2017 7.11pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 17 Aug 17 9.52pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Young, stupid and white....

The world is going to s*** and they are worried about statues.


I think you're completely missing the point of their actions.

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 17 Aug 17 9.57pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well yeah Jamie....antifa are a pain in the arse but their aren't Islamic terrorists looking to murder westerners....I'll give antifa that.

Ah, good ol' "Antifa". Because even the conservative base was getting fed up with the answer to every question being "but...BENGHAZI!"

Edited by Ray in Houston (17 Aug 2017 9.57pm)

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 17 Aug 17 10.32pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by wordup

Most of these statues were placed several decades after the civil war, at the height of KKK activity more for political than historical reasons. Their very presence was a statement to others rather than a lesson to learn from the past. I'm not one to say that they should be airbrushed out, but many were certainly graffitied in.

If people become overly attached some are possibly as attached to the message as they are the monument, hence the type of person who showed up to defend it. On the other hand if individuals decide to deface or destroy they should be arrested as they are not the voice of the community or elected body. It should ideally be down to local communities to decide their future.

Interestingly General Robert E. Lee was invited to attend a meeting to plan granite statues in 1869. His reply: " “My engagements will not permit me to be present, & I believe if there I could not add anything material to the information existing on the subject. I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife & to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered.”

There's more than one way to learn from history, I'm sure he'd agree.


Edited by wordup (17 Aug 2017 8.21pm)

Not just Lee though - few Confederates attended and many from both sides and none shared his view that the war should be allowed to rest.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 17 Aug 17 11.04pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

Ah, good ol' "Antifa". Because even the conservative base was getting fed up with the answer to every question being "but...BENGHAZI!"

Edited by Ray in Houston (17 Aug 2017 9.57pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 18 Aug 17 7.12am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Ray in Houston


I think you're completely missing the point of their actions.

Really?

Do explain.

 

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