Confederate Statues
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  Hrolf The Ganger  31 Aug 17 1.59pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Nice. What's your point?
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| Stirlingsays 31 Aug 17 2.27pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Thing with nationalism, is that its an easy one, like religion is, to rally people to, because its a vaguely definable concept, but one that a lot of people share - that by definition can be used to excuse criticism and exclude valid assessement (basically its an poorly defined ideology). And one abused by most totalitarian states in history. Even the Communists played to National Identity and Nationalism to validate terrible crimes. There isn't anything wrong with being a nationalist, if you can accept that nationalism isn't a truth in its own right, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with criticism of national ideals. Its kind of a bit like how political correctness is becoming a measure to shut people up, rather than to stimulate discussion. When we talk about nationalism and truth it really depends upon what level you are talking about. It's just a concept like any other and as such can and should be criticised like any other. We must live in a society that is free to criticise all ideas. I regard that as a central plank of secularism and a defence against collectivism of any form that gets out of control. It's why I've grown more worried of late over this general over concern about offence. I think I'm a nationalist because I don't see how not being one ultimately works. I think your comparison to religion as a possible unifying force is an accurate one. But unlike religion, nationalism can be framed in such a way as too not make inaccurate claims. Though I agree that like religion it can also be used to lie to people.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 31 Aug 17 2.31pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Nice. Don't be tempted Nick....keep your money in your pocket.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Aug 17 2.50pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Nice. That's the kind of problem with nationalism I have, how its utilised as a path to hate, prejudice and suppression, rather than as a means of improving the experience of life for citizens. When you decide that people who don't share your values are automatically an enemy, you're the problem.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Aug 17 2.54pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
When we talk about nationalism and truth it really depends upon what level you are talking about. It's just a concept like any other and as such can and should be criticised like any other. We must live in a society that is free to criticise all ideas. I regard that as a central plank of secularism and a defence against collectivism of any form that gets out of control. It's why I've grown more worried of late over this general over concern about offence. I think I'm a nationalist because I don't see how not being one ultimately works. I think your comparison to religion as a possible unifying force is an accurate one. But unlike religion, nationalism can be framed in such a way as too not make inaccurate claims. Though I agree that like religion it can also be used to lie to people. I think most people have a sense of national identity and belonging. Nationalism however is used to make inaccurate claims, or more correctly, a rational for dismissal of ideas. Look how quickly 'Nationalists' in the US will dismiss arguments, no matter how well structured and evidenced, as being unpatriotic or 'anti-American' - and there is a long history of this in US politics.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 31 Aug 17 5.12pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
That's the kind of problem with nationalism I have, how its utilised as a path to hate, prejudice and suppression, rather than as a means of improving the experience of life for citizens. When you decide that people who don't share your values are automatically an enemy, you're the problem. You have just described most of humanity.
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| Stirlingsays 31 Aug 17 6.04pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
That's the kind of problem with nationalism I have, how its utilised as a path to hate, prejudice and suppression, rather than as a means of improving the experience of life for citizens. When you decide that people who don't share your values are automatically an enemy, you're the problem. As said, this is a problem with all systems. I'd recognise and agree with how nationalism can go wrong....as a concept it's open to abuse like any other. However, handled properly it enables societies.....If you remove nationalism you just become a weak state with high individualism and weak unifying pulls....Essentially it all becomes a waiting game for a different more nationalistic state to take you over. That's how I see human nature. I agree with you that most people have a sense of national identity and belonging but we both know that a significant minority of the left don't....the 'no borders' mindset is a permanent feature. It has its place within the marketplace of ideas....I just think its time is many generations into the future. Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Aug 2017 10.00pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Sep 17 12.51pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
As said, this is a problem with all systems. I'd recognise and agree with how nationalism can go wrong....as a concept it's open to abuse like any other. However, handled properly it enables societies.....If you remove nationalism you just become a weak state with high individualism and weak unifying pulls....Essentially it all becomes a waiting game for a different more nationalistic state to take you over. That's how I see human nature. I agree with you that most people have a sense of national identity and belonging but we both know that a significant minority of the left don't....the 'no borders' mindset is a permanent feature. It has its place within the marketplace of ideas....I just think its time is many generations into the future. Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Aug 2017 10.00pm) Yeah, I think that's fair, probably true of some liberals and even some conservatives. I love the idea of it, same as I like the idea of this, my ideal situation would be a world in which the idea of nation doesn't exist, same as the idea of difference by race doesn't exist. But I also think that's an ideal not a practical reality - A dream of the future. Kind of like the ideal of the UN vs the reality: and its very dangerous to mistake the idea for the real. Pragmatism over idealism, every time. Its important I feel, never to let the ends justify the means.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 01 Sep 17 10.19pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yeah, I think that's fair, probably true of some liberals and even some conservatives. I love the idea of it, same as I like the idea of this, my ideal situation would be a world in which the idea of nation doesn't exist, same as the idea of difference by race doesn't exist. But I also think that's an ideal not a practical reality - A dream of the future. Kind of like the ideal of the UN vs the reality: and its very dangerous to mistake the idea for the real. Pragmatism over idealism, every time. Its important I feel, never to let the ends justify the means. Why do you think football fans are loyal and passionate about the clubs they support?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| Stirlingsays 01 Sep 17 10.35pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yeah, I think that's fair, probably true of some liberals and even some conservatives. I love the idea of it, same as I like the idea of this, my ideal situation would be a world in which the idea of nation doesn't exist, same as the idea of difference by race doesn't exist. But I also think that's an ideal not a practical reality - A dream of the future. Kind of like the ideal of the UN vs the reality: and its very dangerous to mistake the idea for the real. Pragmatism over idealism, every time. Its important I feel, never to let the ends justify the means. I think this is fair enough. Essentially what's important is the practical progress on the ground in people's lives. The 'no borders, no nations' concept has its place but I think that place has to take account of realities. In a future where technology renders distance moot and political and social systems are far more harmonized you can see this idea meeting far less resistance. I'm generalising here but this can be seen already in the difference in attitudes between the rich.....where their wealth to an extent renders them to view the world as their playing field where they can access the best of most of what's available...Also to a lesser extent the middle class who can also isolate themselves from any negatives associated with globalization. I think this is where champagne socialism comes from. Contrast this with the majority of the working class or the poor who are attached to their street, town, city, country and cultures.....what else do they have to connect to? They are affected by globalization and without their community they don't even have cohesion. So until a world exists that offers minimal difference between the state of peoples the idea of a world of no nations is pretty much a fantasy. Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Sep 2017 1.14pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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