John Le Carre bemoans resurgence of fascist sentim

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Sep 17 12.53pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Hmmm. As with the far Right, the communist reach is curtailed by the those in the middle. Judging by opinions on here, it wouldn't take much for all those would be Karl Marx's to go full Russian revolution on us. I don't think you've met many people from the Communist Party in the UK. They're about as much threat to the security of the UK as the Womens Institute. Paranoia of the Red Menace. The days of the Communists being a threat to the UK ended in the 60s. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Sep 17 12.53pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Hmmm.

As with the far Right, the communist reach is curtailed by the those in the middle. Judging by opinions on here, it wouldn't take much for all those would be Karl Marx's to go full Russian revolution on us.

I don't think you've met many people from the Communist Party in the UK. They're about as much threat to the security of the UK as the Womens Institute.

Paranoia of the Red Menace. The days of the Communists being a threat to the UK ended in the 60s.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 12 Sep 17 12.59pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Small point: The Communist Party isn't illegal but the party those right-wing nutjobs belong to is. These are political judgements. Communists are just as much anti democracy. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Sep 17 12.59pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Small point: The Communist Party isn't illegal but the party those right-wing nutjobs belong to is.

These are political judgements.

Communists are just as much anti democracy.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 12 Sep 17 1.00pm
Originally posted by DanH These reads like a Stewart Lee piece of stand up. It isn't as funny as your English though. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Sep 17 1.00pm

Originally posted by DanH

These reads like a Stewart Lee piece of stand up.

It isn't as funny as your English though.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Sep 17 1.26pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays These are political judgements. Communists are just as much anti democracy. No they're not, the world has moved on a lot, the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital aren't the bible - neither are they sacred texts. You'll find that on the far left there are plenty of pro-democracy communists. Just as you'll find pro-democracy BNP members. Anti-Capitalist definitely, but the Communist Party of Great Britain has stood in, and contested elections and democratic process (and reforms) in the UK. The primary concerns of democracy to the far left has always been that it represents pro-capitalist parties only, and propagates a choice that is no choice at all. Now, maybe that was always a means to an end, but I don't think so. Most of the UK leftwing parties have been pro-democratic, even the SWP was part of the Socialist Alliance. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Sep 17 1.26pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

These are political judgements.

Communists are just as much anti democracy.

No they're not, the world has moved on a lot, the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital aren't the bible - neither are they sacred texts. You'll find that on the far left there are plenty of pro-democracy communists. Just as you'll find pro-democracy BNP members.

Anti-Capitalist definitely, but the Communist Party of Great Britain has stood in, and contested elections and democratic process (and reforms) in the UK. The primary concerns of democracy to the far left has always been that it represents pro-capitalist parties only, and propagates a choice that is no choice at all.

Now, maybe that was always a means to an end, but I don't think so. Most of the UK leftwing parties have been pro-democratic, even the SWP was part of the Socialist Alliance.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 12 Sep 17 1.46pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 National Action is on the MI5 watchlist. About a third of their survellance is on left and right wing extrmist groups. And thats key here National Action is considered a potential terror threat. Where do you get this from? That's the kind of stuff I'd want to know. I'm always looking for information on the security threat. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Sep 17 1.46pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

National Action is on the MI5 watchlist. About a third of their survellance is on left and right wing extrmist groups.

And thats key here National Action is considered a potential terror threat.

Where do you get this from? That's the kind of stuff I'd want to know.

I'm always looking for information on the security threat.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Beanyboysmd 12 Sep 17 1.56pm
People still attach truly outdated titles to peoples political views and it really does trivialise arguements. A belief that anyone who thinks that curbing ability to become use money to acquire power is branded a communist. Not one person who has that view considers themself a communist and trying to give them that label is just being lazy. It works the same on the other side, calling someone fascist because they want to be seved by someone in Burger King to speak English is trully lazy.
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Beanyboysmd

12 Sep 17 1.56pm

People still attach truly outdated titles to peoples political views and it really does trivialise arguements.

A belief that anyone who thinks that curbing ability to become use money to acquire power is branded a communist. Not one person who has that view considers themself a communist and trying to give them that label is just being lazy.

It works the same on the other side, calling someone fascist because they want to be seved by someone in Burger King to speak English is trully lazy.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Sep 17 1.57pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 No they're not, the world has moved on a lot, the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital aren't the bible - neither are they sacred texts. You'll find that on the far left there are plenty of pro-democracy communists. Just as you'll find pro-democracy BNP members. Anti-Capitalist definitely, but the Communist Party of Great Britain has stood in, and contested elections and democratic process (and reforms) in the UK. The primary concerns of democracy to the far left has always been that it represents pro-capitalist parties only, and propagates a choice that is no choice at all. Now, maybe that was always a means to an end, but I don't think so. Most of the UK leftwing parties have been pro-democratic, even the SWP was part of the Socialist Alliance. From the website of the Communist Party of Great Britain: "The capitalist class will never willingly allow their wealth and power to be taken away by a parliamentary vote. They will resist using every means at their disposal. Communists favour using parliament and winning the biggest possible working class representation. But workers must be readied to make revolution - peacefully if we can, forcibly if we must." We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Sep 17 1.57pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Now, maybe that was always a means to an end, but I don't think so. Most of the UK leftwing parties have been pro-democratic, even the SWP was part of the Socialist Alliance.

From the website of the Communist Party of Great Britain:
"The capitalist class will never willingly allow their wealth and power to be taken away by a parliamentary vote. They will resist using every means at their disposal. Communists favour using parliament and winning the biggest possible working class representation. But workers must be readied to make revolution - peacefully if we can, forcibly if we must."

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Stirlingsays 12 Sep 17 1.58pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 No they're not, the world has moved on a lot, the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital aren't the bible - neither are they sacred texts. You'll find that on the far left there are plenty of pro-democracy communists. Just as you'll find pro-democracy BNP members. Anti-Capitalist definitely, but the Communist Party of Great Britain has stood in, and contested elections and democratic process (and reforms) in the UK. The primary concerns of democracy to the far left has always been that it represents pro-capitalist parties only, and propagates a choice that is no choice at all. Now, maybe that was always a means to an end, but I don't think so. Most of the UK leftwing parties have been pro-democratic, even the SWP was part of the Socialist Alliance. Well, ok, you can change democracy for an unspecified number of them to anti state. Of course you get degrees of attachment to any ideology. I'm anti persecution of non violent thought. The point is that If you are going to persecute the far right then it is unbalanced not to persecute the far left. Even though no one should be persecuted if there's no hitting over the head going on. The state is right to protect itself and its first job is to protect its citizens....but it isn't there to get involved in favoring between left and right. In this country...in almost the mirror opposite to the US the far left are far more within the social fabric. America have far better laws on freedom of expression and thought. [ Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Sep 2017 2.22pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Sep 17 1.58pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Now, maybe that was always a means to an end, but I don't think so. Most of the UK leftwing parties have been pro-democratic, even the SWP was part of the Socialist Alliance.

Well, ok, you can change democracy for an unspecified number of them to anti state. Of course you get degrees of attachment to any ideology.

I'm anti persecution of non violent thought. The point is that If you are going to persecute the far right then it is unbalanced not to persecute the far left. Even though no one should be persecuted if there's no hitting over the head going on.

The state is right to protect itself and its first job is to protect its citizens....but it isn't there to get involved in favoring between left and right.

In this country...in almost the mirror opposite to the US the far left are far more within the social fabric.

America have far better laws on freedom of expression and thought.

[

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Sep 2017 2.22pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Sep 17 2.01pm
Originally posted by Beanyboysmd People still attach truly outdated titles to peoples political views and it really does trivialise arguements. A belief that anyone who thinks that curbing ability to become use money to acquire power is branded a communist. Not one person who has that view considers themself a communist and trying to give them that label is just being lazy. It works the same on the other side, calling someone fascist because they want to be seved by someone in Burger King to speak English is trully lazy. More dyslexia than dialectic! Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Sep 2017 2.01pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Sep 17 2.01pm

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

People still attach truly outdated titles to peoples political views and it really does trivialise arguements.

A belief that anyone who thinks that curbing ability to become use money to acquire power is branded a communist. Not one person who has that view considers themself a communist and trying to give them that label is just being lazy.

It works the same on the other side, calling someone fascist because they want to be seved by someone in Burger King to speak English is trully lazy.

More dyslexia than dialectic!

Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Sep 2017 2.01pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Beanyboysmd 12 Sep 17 2.04pm
My biggest concern is how much people are watching America to find new arguements to debates that have been going on for decades. Why are people saying 'liberal media' all of a sudden? 'Fake news' 'Alt-right'. If you are conservative in this country and you are using Donald Trump, CNN or Fox news terminology then you need to have a serious rethink about what arguement you are making. We are not republicans and we are not democrats and we do not have a binary voting system so none of that crap they spew in the news over there applies to us...
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Beanyboysmd

12 Sep 17 2.04pm

My biggest concern is how much people are watching America to find new arguements to debates that have been going on for decades. Why are people saying 'liberal media' all of a sudden? 'Fake news' 'Alt-right'.
If you are conservative in this country and you are using Donald Trump, CNN or Fox news terminology then you need to have a serious rethink about what arguement you are making. We are not republicans and we are not democrats and we do not have a binary voting system so none of that crap they spew in the news over there applies to us...

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Hrolf The Ganger 12 Sep 17 2.14pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I don't think you've met many people from the Communist Party in the UK. They're about as much threat to the security of the UK as the Womens Institute. Paranoia of the Red Menace. The days of the Communists being a threat to the UK ended in the 60s. Well you know them better than me. I could say that Nazis stopped being a threat in 1945 but I don't want to spoil any hyperbole about fascist uprisings.
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Hrolf The Ganger

12 Sep 17 2.14pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I don't think you've met many people from the Communist Party in the UK. They're about as much threat to the security of the UK as the Womens Institute.

Paranoia of the Red Menace. The days of the Communists being a threat to the UK ended in the 60s.

Well you know them better than me.

I could say that Nazis stopped being a threat in 1945 but I don't want to spoil any hyperbole about fascist uprisings.

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Ray in Houston Houston 12 Sep 17 2.28pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Do want some news that isn't fake? Trump, the sex pest, recently pardoned a Sheriff convicted of criminal contempt who violated the constitution with his racial profiling, discrimination and hardline enforcing tactics. He had a prison in which hundreds of inmates were housed in tents...in Arizona!...which he called a concentration camp. He segregated inmates by race. Also, hundreds people died inexplicably (i.e. not by the hand of another inmate) in his custody. Arpaio is a despicable man, hence Trump idolises him. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 12 Sep 17 2.28pm

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Originally posted by Kermit8

Do want some news that isn't fake? Trump, the sex pest, recently pardoned a Sheriff convicted of criminal contempt who violated the constitution with his racial profiling, discrimination and hardline enforcing tactics.

He had a prison in which hundreds of inmates were housed in tents...in Arizona!...which he called a concentration camp. He segregated inmates by race. Also, hundreds people died inexplicably (i.e. not by the hand of another inmate) in his custody.

Arpaio is a despicable man, hence Trump idolises him.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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