US soldiers in Vietnam hear they are going home

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Oct 17 4.55pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I watched the second episode of Vietham last night. I'm getting the impression that Kennedy's approach was right......But like all of us I have the massive advantage of hindsight. He wanted a south Vietham but the regime there were so repressive that they just created support for the north. He could see that with those conditions that it was unwinnable. I think had Kennedy lived and won the next election that he would have probably pulled out of Vietham. He could see the leadership in the south wasn't popular. It would still have been a very difficult decision.....It was literally leaving hundreds of thousands of democratic western leaning people to the communists....death, torture and re-education for wanting democracy. But America would probably have got out with suffering casualties in the hundreds. People who think that this was an easy and obvious decision should look at South Korea.....look at those people and say that the defence of democracy against communism was wrong. These are massive decisions....should you fight?....when to fight.....how to fight and how much. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2017 4.50pm) Never fight a war you can't win. Doesn't matter what is at stake, if you lose, you its almost impossible to recover from, and you can't claim it 'was moral or right' when your citizens are burying their children. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Oct 17 4.55pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I watched the second episode of Vietham last night. I'm getting the impression that Kennedy's approach was right......But like all of us I have the massive advantage of hindsight.

He wanted a south Vietham but the regime there were so repressive that they just created support for the north. He could see that with those conditions that it was unwinnable.

I think had Kennedy lived and won the next election that he would have probably pulled out of Vietham. He could see the leadership in the south wasn't popular. It would still have been a very difficult decision.....It was literally leaving hundreds of thousands of democratic western leaning people to the communists....death, torture and re-education for wanting democracy.

But America would probably have got out with suffering casualties in the hundreds.

People who think that this was an easy and obvious decision should look at South Korea.....look at those people and say that the defence of democracy against communism was wrong.

These are massive decisions....should you fight?....when to fight.....how to fight and how much.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2017 4.50pm)

Never fight a war you can't win. Doesn't matter what is at stake, if you lose, you its almost impossible to recover from, and you can't claim it 'was moral or right' when your citizens are burying their children.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 12 Oct 17 4.57pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I'm not sure how true this is, to an extent maybe, but after the Vietnam war, the US was itself humiliated and contained itself to the idea of 'preventing communism' in South America. But by this point the Chinese were 'reforming' and the Soviet Union were a busted flush trying to stay afloat. The 70s would see the proxy war between the west and east shift, and by the end of the 70s, the Soviet had its own Vietnam in Afghanistan to contend with. The US stomach for future military deployments was broken by the Vietnam war for a generation - It wouldn't be until 1991 with the first Gulf war that the US really deployed militarily on mass. A consequence of Vietnam is that the US couldn't muster the will to intervene in Iran directly, Nicaragua or El Salvador, relying instead on its proxies. The US post-Vietnam, switched its attention to South America, where it had real financial interests, rather than backwater 'nothing countries'. I agree that at this point in the seventies this was pretty much the case. But if we had pulled out in 64 or 65 as Kennedy would probably have done....who knows....The message to Russia and China could have been to push on. On balance though...perhaps not. The fight in Korea showed that the west would fight if they regarded it as worth it.....Or maybe that fight would have simply carried onto a different country. So many mistakes in Vietham. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2017 4.58pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Oct 17 4.57pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I'm not sure how true this is, to an extent maybe, but after the Vietnam war, the US was itself humiliated and contained itself to the idea of 'preventing communism' in South America.

But by this point the Chinese were 'reforming' and the Soviet Union were a busted flush trying to stay afloat. The 70s would see the proxy war between the west and east shift, and by the end of the 70s, the Soviet had its own Vietnam in Afghanistan to contend with.

The US stomach for future military deployments was broken by the Vietnam war for a generation - It wouldn't be until 1991 with the first Gulf war that the US really deployed militarily on mass.

A consequence of Vietnam is that the US couldn't muster the will to intervene in Iran directly, Nicaragua or El Salvador, relying instead on its proxies.

The US post-Vietnam, switched its attention to South America, where it had real financial interests, rather than backwater 'nothing countries'.

I agree that at this point in the seventies this was pretty much the case.

But if we had pulled out in 64 or 65 as Kennedy would probably have done....who knows....The message to Russia and China could have been to push on.

On balance though...perhaps not. The fight in Korea showed that the west would fight if they regarded it as worth it.....Or maybe that fight would have simply carried onto a different country.

So many mistakes in Vietham.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2017 4.58pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 12 Oct 17 5.07pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Never fight a war you can't win. Doesn't matter what is at stake, if you lose, you its almost impossible to recover from, and you can't claim it 'was moral or right' when your citizens are burying their children. We both know the US could have won it.....but being a democracy they weren't willing to pay the price....and quite rightly they weren't willing to be ruthless enough to do it. If there is war then one thing is certain....that people are going to be burying children. That's why countries with decent leadership so often try to avoid war.....problem is....make the wrong decision and you end up burying far more children than if you had struck early.....in a winnable war...as you say. Horrible decisions, that I'm glad I never have to make. For example, I know I couldn't have oked the bomb drops on Japan. I've thought about it alot....couldn't do it. I would have had conditional surrender......surrounded them until then......But then again.....someone was going to use that bomb at some point....But I couldn't have done it myself. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2017 6.15pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Oct 17 5.07pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

We both know the US could have won it.....but being a democracy they weren't willing to pay the price....and quite rightly they weren't willing to be ruthless enough to do it.

If there is war then one thing is certain....that people are going to be burying children.

That's why countries with decent leadership so often try to avoid war.....problem is....make the wrong decision and you end up burying far more children than if you had struck early.....in a winnable war...as you say.

Horrible decisions, that I'm glad I never have to make.

For example, I know I couldn't have oked the bomb drops on Japan. I've thought about it alot....couldn't do it.

I would have had conditional surrender......surrounded them until then......But then again.....someone was going to use that bomb at some point....But I couldn't have done it myself.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2017 6.15pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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