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hedgehog50 Croydon 13 Oct 17 11.59am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I like T.S Elliot, despite the fact he was a terrible husband (alleged wife beater). I think the art can be seen as separate from the person (but that's easier when someone is dead). Also it means you can appreciate the fact that Michael Jackson could dance and sing with the best of them, and still hate the fact he was a child bothering sex monster. Orwell (as usual) has something to say on this: "One ought to be able to hold in one's head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other. The first thing that we demand of a wall is that it shall stand up. If it stands up, it is a good wall, and the question of what purpose it serves is separable from that. And yet even the best wall in the world deserves to be pulled down if it surrounds a concentration camp. In the same way it should be possible to say, ‘This is a good book or a good picture, and it ought to be burned by the public hangman.’ Unless one can say that, at least in imagination, one is shirking the implications of the fact that an artist is also a citizen and a human being." We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 13 Oct 17 11.59am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I like T.S Elliot, despite the fact he was a terrible husband (alleged wife beater). I think the art can be seen as separate from the person (but that's easier when someone is dead). Also it means you can appreciate the fact that Michael Jackson could dance and sing with the best of them, and still hate the fact he was a child bothering sex monster.

Orwell (as usual) has something to say on this:
"One ought to be able to hold in one's head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other. The first thing that we demand of a wall is that it shall stand up. If it stands up, it is a good wall, and the question of what purpose it serves is separable from that. And yet even the best wall in the world deserves to be pulled down if it surrounds a concentration camp. In the same way it should be possible to say, ‘This is a good book or a good picture, and it ought to be burned by the public hangman.’ Unless one can say that, at least in imagination, one is shirking the implications of the fact that an artist is also a citizen and a human being."

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Oct 17 11.59am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Your implicit suggestion that potential victims should only come forward if they are welcomed and believed is, in my view, nonsense. If a woman has been raped or seriously sexually assaulted she should report it. That is so obvious that no one should feel the need to say it. There is accuser and there is accused. Then there is investigation. There should be no bias. I don't care if you have a problem with that. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Oct 2017 11.45am) Problem is that its not that easy, its a humiliating and traumatic experience. The police's reputation isn't exactly great in relation to reported sex offences, the system is massively stacked against getting justice (around 8% conviction rate) and you'll have to go through a number of examinations, photographs and evidential procedures then relive the experience in court, and face cross examination, and everyone knowing what happened to you. That's before you get to the fact that the defence will almost certainly try to prove you wanted it, and that your lying and destroy you as a person. That's if it gets that far (most cases don't) And that'll all take at least a year of going to court, witness statements etc. Unsurprisingly, this doesn't seem to appeal when your looking at an 8% of justice being served. The system massively fails women, because obtaining reasonable doubt is really difficult when its your word against theirs. There usually aren't witnesses, evidence can be easily argued away by consent even to consenting to rough sex. Now I understand that the justice system is about fairness, reasonable doubt and establishing certainty - but as a consequence, sex crimes are notoriously easy for people to get away with. Its a lot easier for a man, who has been raped by another man, to obtain a conviction. Again though, most male victims of rape don't report it either. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Oct 17 11.59am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Your implicit suggestion that potential victims should only come forward if they are welcomed and believed is, in my view, nonsense. If a woman has been raped or seriously sexually assaulted she should report it. That is so obvious that no one should feel the need to say it.

There is accuser and there is accused. Then there is investigation. There should be no bias.

I don't care if you have a problem with that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Oct 2017 11.45am)

Problem is that its not that easy, its a humiliating and traumatic experience. The police's reputation isn't exactly great in relation to reported sex offences, the system is massively stacked against getting justice (around 8% conviction rate) and you'll have to go through a number of examinations, photographs and evidential procedures then relive the experience in court, and face cross examination, and everyone knowing what happened to you.

That's before you get to the fact that the defence will almost certainly try to prove you wanted it, and that your lying and destroy you as a person.

That's if it gets that far (most cases don't)

And that'll all take at least a year of going to court, witness statements etc.

Unsurprisingly, this doesn't seem to appeal when your looking at an 8% of justice being served.

The system massively fails women, because obtaining reasonable doubt is really difficult when its your word against theirs. There usually aren't witnesses, evidence can be easily argued away by consent even to consenting to rough sex.

Now I understand that the justice system is about fairness, reasonable doubt and establishing certainty - but as a consequence, sex crimes are notoriously easy for people to get away with.

Its a lot easier for a man, who has been raped by another man, to obtain a conviction. Again though, most male victims of rape don't report it either.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Michaelawt85 Bexley 13 Oct 17 12.01pm
At the end of the day yes he sounds odious. A perv and a creep. Obviously if he is a rapist then he should be in prison at some stage. The fact he would open hotel doors in a dressing gown naked underneath and assume women would be up for being propositioned and want to take part is so wrong. However if that were me as one of those actresses if i don't take him up on his offer of sex or a blow job in return for a film role which could make me millions and further enhance my celebrity status there's sure to be a woman or girl along shortly who sure as hell Will. Yes it's corrupt, no it's not right. But it's a sad fact of life. For someone money and fame orientated what's 5 minutes sucking him off . Nothing. Small price to pay for what you will get in return. He offered some confidentiality clauses so no one need even know. We don't know who went along with his offers do we. Not many of us would turn down money like that if you're completely honest. Women go out every night of the week to dinner with a man which he pays for , have sex later then never see each other again. Good argument that it's not so far removed from prostitution no matter how you dress it up. As long as both parties were willing participants When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC
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Michaelawt85

Bexley 13 Oct 17 12.01pm

At the end of the day yes he sounds odious. A perv and a creep. Obviously if he is a rapist then he should be in prison at some stage. The fact he would open hotel doors in a dressing gown naked underneath and assume women would be up for being propositioned and want to take part is so wrong. However if that were me as one of those actresses if i don't take him up on his offer of sex or a blow job in return for a film role which could make me millions and further enhance my celebrity status there's sure to be a woman or girl along shortly who sure as hell Will. Yes it's corrupt, no it's not right. But it's a sad fact of life. For someone money and fame orientated what's 5 minutes sucking him off . Nothing. Small price to pay for what you will get in return. He offered some confidentiality clauses so no one need even know. We don't know who went along with his offers do we. Not many of us would turn down money like that if you're completely honest. Women go out every night of the week to dinner with a man which he pays for , have sex later then never see each other again. Good argument that it's not so far removed from prostitution no matter how you dress it up. As long as both parties were willing participants

When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Oct 17 12.04pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Orwell (as usual) has something to say on this: "One ought to be able to hold in one's head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other. The first thing that we demand of a wall is that it shall stand up. If it stands up, it is a good wall, and the question of what purpose it serves is separable from that. And yet even the best wall in the world deserves to be pulled down if it surrounds a concentration camp. In the same way it should be possible to say, ‘This is a good book or a good picture, and it ought to be burned by the public hangman.’ Unless one can say that, at least in imagination, one is shirking the implications of the fact that an artist is also a citizen and a human being." Orwell is both a great writer and a bloody leftie "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Oct 17 12.04pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Orwell is both a great writer and a bloody leftie

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Oct 17 12.08pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 At the end of the day yes he sounds odious. A perv and a creep. Obviously if he is a rapist then he should be in prison at some stage. The fact he would open hotel doors in a dressing gown naked underneath and assume women would be up for being propositioned and want to take part is so wrong. However if that were me as one of those actresses if i don't take him up on his offer of sex or a blow job in return for a film role which could make me millions and further enhance my celebrity status there's sure to be a woman or girl along shortly who sure as hell Will. Yes it's corrupt, no it's not right. But it's a sad fact of life. For someone money and fame orientated what's 5 minutes sucking him off . Nothing. Small price to pay for what you will get in return. He offered some confidentiality clauses so no one need even know. We don't know who went along with his offers do we. Not many of us would turn down money like that if you're completely honest. Women go out every night of the week to dinner with a man which he pays for , have sex later then never see each other again. Good argument that it's not so far removed from prostitution no matter how you dress it up. As long as both parties were willing participants I think that its over time that this kind of thing eats away at people. In the moment, its something you can dismiss (even if you don't accept and nothing happens, or your groped, slap the guy a storm out) - Down the line it builds up, gnaws away at who you are - especially when it comes time to do it again, or it happens again - or its someone else expecting the same - because he's been bragging about it. In an ideal world, the first time he tried it, someone would have beating the living snot out of him for it. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Oct 17 12.08pm

Originally posted by Michaelawt85

I think that its over time that this kind of thing eats away at people. In the moment, its something you can dismiss (even if you don't accept and nothing happens, or your groped, slap the guy a storm out) - Down the line it builds up, gnaws away at who you are - especially when it comes time to do it again, or it happens again - or its someone else expecting the same - because he's been bragging about it.

In an ideal world, the first time he tried it, someone would have beating the living snot out of him for it.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 13 Oct 17 12.11pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Problem is that its not that easy, its a humiliating and traumatic experience. The police's reputation isn't exactly great in relation to reported sex offences, the system is massively stacked against getting justice (around 8% conviction rate) and you'll have to go through a number of examinations, photographs and evidential procedures then relive the experience in court, and face cross examination, and everyone knowing what happened to you. That's before you get to the fact that the defence will almost certainly try to prove you wanted it, and that your lying and destroy you as a person. That's if it gets that far (most cases don't) And that'll all take at least a year of going to court, witness statements etc. Unsurprisingly, this doesn't seem to appeal when your looking at an 8% of justice being served. The system massively fails women, because obtaining reasonable doubt is really difficult when its your word against theirs. There usually aren't witnesses, evidence can be easily argued away by consent even to consenting to rough sex. Now I understand that the justice system is about fairness, reasonable doubt and establishing certainty - but as a consequence, sex crimes are notoriously easy for people to get away with. Its a lot easier for a man, who has been raped by another man, to obtain a conviction. Again though, most male victims of rape don't report it either. I agree with all of that except for you blaming the system. The reality we have is the best we can do. This nature of the crime is both horrendous and horrendously difficult to prove. The link I posted illustrates what happens when you start helping the accuser over the accused. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Oct 17 12.11pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

That's before you get to the fact that the defence will almost certainly try to prove you wanted it, and that your lying and destroy you as a person.

That's if it gets that far (most cases don't)

And that'll all take at least a year of going to court, witness statements etc.

Unsurprisingly, this doesn't seem to appeal when your looking at an 8% of justice being served.

Now I understand that the justice system is about fairness, reasonable doubt and establishing certainty - but as a consequence, sex crimes are notoriously easy for people to get away with.

Its a lot easier for a man, who has been raped by another man, to obtain a conviction. Again though, most male victims of rape don't report it either.

I agree with all of that except for you blaming the system.

The reality we have is the best we can do. This nature of the crime is both horrendous and horrendously difficult to prove.

The link I posted illustrates what happens when you start helping the accuser over the accused.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Michaelawt85 Bexley 13 Oct 17 12.13pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think that its over time that this kind of thing eats away at people. In the moment, its something you can dismiss (even if you don't accept and nothing happens, or your groped, slap the guy a storm out) - Down the line it builds up, gnaws away at who you are - especially when it comes time to do it again, or it happens again - or its someone else expecting the same - because he's been bragging about it. In an ideal world, the first time he tried it, someone would have beating the living snot out of him for it. Not much different to Hugh hefner but he seems to have some legitimacy about his behaviour and be seen as legend by some. Strange old world When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC
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Michaelawt85

Bexley 13 Oct 17 12.13pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

In an ideal world, the first time he tried it, someone would have beating the living snot out of him for it.

Not much different to Hugh hefner but he seems to have some legitimacy about his behaviour and be seen as legend by some. Strange old world

When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC

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Stirlingsays 13 Oct 17 12.24pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think that its over time that this kind of thing eats away at people. In the moment, its something you can dismiss (even if you don't accept and nothing happens, or your groped, slap the guy a storm out) - Down the line it builds up, gnaws away at who you are - especially when it comes time to do it again, or it happens again - or its someone else expecting the same - because he's been bragging about it. In an ideal world, the first time he tried it, someone would have beating the living snot out of him for it. The system has always been wrong and he's an example of an exploiter within that system. But there are millions of exploiters in life... both male and female in both personal and in business situation. This guy is just another example of exploitation that exists everywhere within human relationships.....his is magnified because it's sexual exploitation...the worse kind outside of killing for money. This is the darker side of human nature.....it's not nice and it should be punished but proportionality. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Oct 17 12.24pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

In an ideal world, the first time he tried it, someone would have beating the living snot out of him for it.

The system has always been wrong and he's an example of an exploiter within that system. But there are millions of exploiters in life... both male and female in both personal and in business situation. This guy is just another example of exploitation that exists everywhere within human relationships.....his is magnified because it's sexual exploitation...the worse kind outside of killing for money.

This is the darker side of human nature.....it's not nice and it should be punished but proportionality.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 13 Oct 17 12.28pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 Not much different to Hugh hefner but he seems to have some legitimacy about his behaviour and be seen as legend by some. Strange old world It's a good point really....But the difference is that they come to him with their eyes and their mouths/legs open. It's the sugar daddy model.....pathetic but there you go. An actress shouldn't have to use sex to get jobs.....Banging the boss shouldn't get you favours....but we know what happens. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Oct 17 12.28pm

Originally posted by Michaelawt85

Not much different to Hugh hefner but he seems to have some legitimacy about his behaviour and be seen as legend by some. Strange old world

It's a good point really....But the difference is that they come to him with their eyes and their mouths/legs open.

It's the sugar daddy model.....pathetic but there you go.

An actress shouldn't have to use sex to get jobs.....Banging the boss shouldn't get you favours....but we know what happens.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Oct 17 12.29pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 Not much different to Hugh hefner but he seems to have some legitimacy about his behaviour and be seen as legend by some. Strange old world I think its kind of more upfront with Hefner. Kind of weird, huh "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 13 Oct 17 12.29pm

Originally posted by Michaelawt85

Not much different to Hugh hefner but he seems to have some legitimacy about his behaviour and be seen as legend by some. Strange old world

I think its kind of more upfront with Hefner. Kind of weird, huh

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Michaelawt85 Bexley 13 Oct 17 1.38pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think its kind of more upfront with Hefner. Kind of weird, huh Upfront or hidden from view. Same meat different gravey When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC
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Michaelawt85

Bexley 13 Oct 17 1.38pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think its kind of more upfront with Hefner. Kind of weird, huh

Upfront or hidden from view. Same meat different gravey

When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC

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Hrolf The Ganger 13 Oct 17 1.49pm
Originally posted by Michaelawt85 Upfront or hidden from view. Same meat different gravey I agree. Our double standards on morality always make me laugh. And women justifying their spell in the mansion always makes me puke.
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Hrolf The Ganger

13 Oct 17 1.49pm

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Originally posted by Michaelawt85

Upfront or hidden from view. Same meat different gravey

I agree. Our double standards on morality always make me laugh. And women justifying their spell in the mansion always makes me puke.

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