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 Kermit8  Hevon 24 Oct 17 4.15pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
So do you refer to the Tory party as 'white' rulers then? Are you on some kind of mind-altering medication at the moment?
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hedgehog50  Croydon 24 Oct 17 4.19pm |
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Are there any successful whelk stalls in any African country?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| Stirlingsays 24 Oct 17 4.19pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
For Hrolf, historically, white rule never existed in South Africa. These are the kind of allies you are hanging out with politically I much prefer Hrolf to your mate Nick......you defended him on Antifa of course....criticised me a lot for that. Hrolf is right to say the focus on skin colour is over stated. However, I do agree that democracy should have seen the end of...what was effectively foreign rule a long time before it happened.....Colonialism lasted too long into the modern era. In practice no one lets go of power easily. But none of that is a defence for how these countries ran after 'white rule' (for ease of description) went. They are backward and corrupt. But people must have the right to choose their own leaders.....but not just blame anyone else for your country's failings. Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Oct 2017 4.47pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 24 Oct 17 4.24pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I'm no fan of defending colonialism, and regard empire as probably the greatest wrong done by the British as a nation in history. I abhor the idea of suppression of any individuals right to live freely and go about their life as they see fit, whether its racial, religious or cultural prejudice. What I don't accept is the idea that replacing one tyrant for another is in any way a positive change. I could go on here about how the failure of the previous regimes of South Africa and Zimbabwe produced the ANC and ZANU (respectively) and that I don't actually see their fight as being wrong per se (those who are oppressed should fight back). But the actions of Mugabe following the 1980 elections, showed the true colours of the regime to come. Some of the early achievements of ZANU in response to health care and education should be applauded - but the tyranny of Mugabe towards any attempt of political power for the population simply mirrors the oppression of previous white national governments. If I object to the idea of racist politics, that has to work both ways. You can't accept that the ANC were right to fight, and then defend racist policy and actions that their followers pursued later against ordinary white citizens. With respect you need to look at the cause of Zimbabwe's independence not the effect. When I say your sanitised view of colonialism its not even that, you are avoiding what happened under white rule altogether. Why was the embitterment worse than in other African newly-independent countries where relations were maintained for instance.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 24 Oct 17 4.26pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
With respect you need to look at the cause of Zimbabwe's independence not the effect. When I say your sanitised view of colonialism its not even that, you are avoiding what happened under white rule altogether. Why was the embitterment worse than in other African newly-independent countries where relations were maintained for instance. Why is Zimbabwe such a failing country?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| Stirlingsays 24 Oct 17 4.38pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
The benefit of hindsight, is that we can see what was wrong, and colonialism was a terrible injustice perpetuated by nations onto other others. I don't think it can really be written off as 'humans not being nice' because not everyone supported the colonialism at the time, there was dissenters from the offset, as there were with the slave trade. And those people, even if a minority, were right. Our ancestors probably thought they were right, and as it turns out, they weren't. They were simply trying to justify immoral and unethical actions that just happened to benefit them - like they did with slavery. The important thing is to remember, and move on - and avoid trying to avoid making the same mistakes in the future, and where possible try to undo some of that damage. When we talk about any subject, we should talk warts and all; the empire was an injustice perpetuated on a lot of people, in a manner we'd consider now an act of war and an occupation. Colonialism was the control of lands by force by a foreign power. The 'objections' of the few... would have most probably.... in effect led to this country being the native Americans. That's the reality. I doubt those people were pushing the view that we should stay militarily strong and advance military technologies. Like I say....the native Americans were right...Didn't do them a lot of good. I think your post doesn't recognise that what is 'right' and what happens in the world rarely meet. Nations, make their own destinies....what is right and what isn't are subjective. There are western children alive now because of the decision not to invade Japan and there are children who died horribly and who were never born because that bomb dropped. Depending upon how it affected you there are different views on that. But like I said.....we can moralise all we like. Those who push behaviour that essentially ignores human behaviour or who think they can change it.....they are the people who risk my children's future.....not the wolves...who I know..... have always been out there. Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Oct 2017 4.42pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 24 Oct 17 4.43pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Why is Zimbabwe such a failing country? It is their country. Whether we perceive it as failing is not relevant H. Many people think of the UK as failing. Its 2017 in the UK and a mother of two has 1p universal credit to live on probably homelessness next week. Isn't our country failing?
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| Stirlingsays 24 Oct 17 4.53pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
With respect you need to look at the cause of Zimbabwe's independence not the effect. When I say your sanitised view of colonialism its not even that, you are avoiding what happened under white rule altogether. Why was the embitterment worse than in other African newly-independent countries where relations were maintained for instance. You are overly obsessed about the skin colour aspect of this. We have black MPs in this country. They are elected from areas that have high concentrations of black people in them. But these black people moved into white areas and those white people had no say on the matter. Was that wrong then? Seeing things strictly in skin colour terms is the wrong way to view this. This is about power and the right of people to choose their representatives.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Oct 17 4.53pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
With respect you need to look at the cause of Zimbabwe's independence not the effect. When I say your sanitised view of colonialism its not even that, you are avoiding what happened under white rule altogether. Why was the embitterment worse than in other African newly-independent countries where relations were maintained for instance. What happened under white rule was indefensible. What happened after independence is indefensible. The revolution delivered freedom from oppressive, white rule and delivered oppressive black rule instead. I don't see what the problem is here. Just because the colour of the oppressor changes, doesn't mean people aren't being oppressed. Maybe after being oppressed by white men, its better being oppressed by black men. I don't know, to me it sounds like the problem isn't whether someone is black or white, but whether they're oppressing you.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stirlingsays 24 Oct 17 4.55pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
It is their country. Whether we perceive it as failing is not relevant H. Many people think of the UK as failing. Its 2017 in the UK and a mother of two has 1p universal credit to live on probably homelessness next week. Isn't our country failing? No, we are the sixth richest country in the world by GDP. Compared to most other countries we are a land of plenty.....Which is why we have the immigration issues we have....and why massive critics of this country...like you...slag it off but won't leave it.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Oct 17 4.56pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
South Africa had explicit race laws, passed by government, segregating the races. Transgression of these laws was a crime (such as having sex with people of different racial groups - largely unenforced if you were white). So no, the conservative party whilst mostly white has non white MPs. And surely that would have been the case if the division had been religious or tribal or any number of excuses. We subjucated the Scots and I'm sure it wasn't for being ginger.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 24 Oct 17 4.58pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
It is their country. Whether we perceive it as failing is not relevant H. Many people think of the UK as failing. Its 2017 in the UK and a mother of two has 1p universal credit to live on probably homelessness next week. Isn't our country failing? Are you seriously comparing the condition of Zimbabwe to that of the UK? Yes it is their country, why can't they make a far better job of running it. As we are discussing the shambles that is Zimbabwe, of course our perception of it is relevant, how can we discuss it otherwise. Why do you deflect to your usual attacks on the UK, do you call the UK 'our country' while you want it to be part of the EU. A mother of two is not going to be left on the streets in the uk - how would she fare in Zimbabwe - would Bob put her up in one of his mansions?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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