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  Hrolf The Ganger  24 Oct 17 4.59pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Are you on some kind of mind-altering medication at the moment? I do often think so when I read the stuff from you, Gusset and Steelye. It can't be real.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 24 Oct 17 5.01pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
And surely that would have been the case if the division had been religious or tribal or any number of excuses. We subjucated the Scots and I'm sure it wasn't for being ginger. We've had colonial wars with plenty of white people - Ireland, America, Canada, South Africa etc
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Oct 17 5.03pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
It is their country. Well, yes, that's an improvement - although technically its Mugabe's supporters country. They aren't subject to Empire or Commonwealth rule etc. Originally posted by steeleye20
Whether we perceive it as failing is not relevant H. It is if you live there. I don't think anyone could look at the country and think, yeah that's what we wanted to do with our independence. I'd say in the early years, before Mugabe declared himself de facto leader, when the country was still a fledgeling new nation - Yes, there was great progress being made for the population in some areas, literacy, health care and welfare - That's all vanished now though. The problem of Zimbabwe has always been, since 1980, the unwillingness of Mugabe for power sharing through democracy. Him, and his supporters, effectively co-opted the revolution towards their own ends rather than the interests of the nation. Originally posted by steeleye20
Many people think of the UK as failing. Its 2017 in the UK and a mother of two has 1p universal credit to live on probably homelessness next week. Isn't our country failing? Its definitely failing some people, maybe many people - Countries responsibility is to the well being of their citizens, not minorities. There is plenty here to fix as well.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 24 Oct 17 5.07pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
What happened under white rule was indefensible. What happened after independence is indefensible. The revolution delivered freedom from oppressive, white rule and delivered oppressive black rule instead. I don't see what the problem is here. Just because the colour of the oppressor changes, doesn't mean people aren't being oppressed. Maybe after being oppressed by white men, its better being oppressed by black men. I don't know, to me it sounds like the problem isn't whether someone is black or white, but whether they're oppressing you. But what has happened in Zimbabwe after independence is not within our remit, and probably incorrect anyway.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Oct 17 5.09pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
We've had colonial wars with plenty of white people - Ireland, America, Canada, South Africa etc Exactly. The whole evil empire racism thing is a modern political movement.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 24 Oct 17 5.18pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
But what has happened in Zimbabwe after independence is not within our remit, and probably incorrect anyway. What do you mean'not in our remit'! We are not allowed to have a view on a country if it is 'not in our remit'? Can't criticise Trump then, he is not in our remit. Kim Jon Un? Not in our remit. Adolph Hitler - nothing to do with us!
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Oct 17 5.19pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
And surely that would have been the case if the division had been religious or tribal or any number of excuses. We subjucated the Scots and I'm sure it wasn't for being ginger. Except of course Scottish kings have sat on the throne of England. The subjugation of the Scots and other white 'colonies' isn't really on a par with Imperial Africa. But to say that race played no part in the subjugation of South Africa and Zimbabwe is an absurd position to take. Maybe they would have found other excuses - but they didn't - It was race. And even if it was another 'reason', it would have been equally invalid. Ireland, maybe you have a point there, with the way that Protestant England treated the Catholics
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Oct 17 5.21pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yes, because the Empire nations, because we never tried to claim Spain, after fighting the French there, or France after the defeat of Napoleon, or even Germany after the defeat in 1918. Nations would fight nations for imperial territory, the British fought the Boar, but realistically, had they been white people, its unlikely they'd have enacted the slave trade or empire in the same manner as they did in Africa. We'd have treated them a lot differently as well (compare the US revolution to how revolts in other racial areas were dealt with). Edited by jamiemartin721 (24 Oct 2017 4.08pm) I agree that it is probably easier to be ruthless with people if you consider them sufficiently different or inferior that you cannot empathise with them. That didn't stop us brutalising the American Indian, Indians,Scots,Irish,Jews,Welsh, Aborigines and if we are talking about white races generally, the Romans enslaved anyone who didn't run fast enough. I think 'racism' is a symptom rather than a cause.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Oct 17 5.23pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
What do you mean'not in our remit'! We are not allowed to have a view on a country if it is 'not in our remit'? Can't criticise Trump then, he is not in our remit. Kim Jon Un? Not in our remit. Adolph Hitler - nothing to do with us! Its not our responsibility, but its certainly in our interest, or at least mine, as someone who believes in the rights of men and women, to see oppression of human rights and dignity, as wrong. The revolutionary movements in Zimbabwe were justified in their fight, as were the ANC. That doesn't excuse them for being accountable for their failure to live up to their responsibility to their own people - just because I'm white.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Oct 17 5.25pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Except of course Scottish kings have sat on the throne of England. The subjugation of the Scots and other white 'colonies' isn't really on a par with Imperial Africa. But to say that race played no part in the subjugation of South Africa and Zimbabwe is an absurd position to take. Maybe they would have found other excuses - but they didn't - It was race. And even if it was another 'reason', it would have been equally invalid. Ireland, maybe you have a point there, with the way that Protestant England treated the Catholics In fairness Scotland didn't have much gold or diamonds and the weather is s***. As I said, racism is a symptom, not the cause. We weren't fussy who we screwed and if you wish to remain and occupy a country to milk it and make it home, you have to control the population who obviously hate you.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 24 Oct 17 5.30pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
What do you mean'not in our remit'! We are not allowed to have a view on a country if it is 'not in our remit'? Can't criticise Trump then, he is not in our remit. Kim Jon Un? Not in our remit. Adolph Hitler - nothing to do with us!
Actually it is a convention that countries do not comment upon each others affairs. You can have a view on anything, the problem on this forum is that some posters rubbish other countries they have never been to and know nothing about. Rather than face inconvenient facts about our own.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 24 Oct 17 5.38pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
Zimbabwe is an independent country, it ceased to be within our remit on independence and couldn't care less about what we think about anything. Actually it is a convention that countries do not comment upon each others affairs. You can have a view on anything, the problem on this forum is that some posters rubbish other countries they have never been to and know nothing about. Rather than face inconvenient facts about our own. Really? That's going along well isn't it! It's actually pointless discussing this with you as your position is so nuts, it's like debating with a Jehovah's Witness. Edited by hedgehog50 (24 Oct 2017 5.40pm)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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