Is Capitalism Broken?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Oct 17 5.19pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I don't see it that way at all. We are the most evolved creature ever. Our brains and dexterity are advantages that clearly trump any other over the 2 million years we have existed and have allowed us greater adaptability to various environments. We dominate not by numbers but by the ability to and control the environment, deliberately or otherwise, like no other species ever. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 Oct 2017 4.21pm) Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment. I'd question your human centric version of success. Cats and Dogs, with far less intelligence, seem to have done a remarkable job of achieving the same kinds of achievements as humans, by getting humans to do all the work. My cats enjoy regular meals, comforts and shelter, without having to hold down a job and are far less 'intelligent or evolved' than me. Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats. Believing that having jobs, shirts, shoes and buildings makes us the most evolved creature on the planet is human centric hubris - We're a semi-sentient vehicle for viruses and bacteria. We're also a species that destroys its own environment, and who's success is entirely based upon the exploitation of a limited resource (fossil fuels) - which we poison our own environment and ourselves with, and have no feasible replacement for. Once that runs out, the great human experiment is over. Humanity will no be able to sustain itself at even remotely its 'great level' without a viable substitute - and our solution seems to be use more. We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Oct 17 5.19pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I don't see it that way at all.

We are the most evolved creature ever. Our brains and dexterity are advantages that clearly trump any other over the 2 million years we have existed and have allowed us greater adaptability to various environments.

We dominate not by numbers but by the ability to and control the environment, deliberately or otherwise, like no other species ever.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 Oct 2017 4.21pm)

Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment.

I'd question your human centric version of success. Cats and Dogs, with far less intelligence, seem to have done a remarkable job of achieving the same kinds of achievements as humans, by getting humans to do all the work. My cats enjoy regular meals, comforts and shelter, without having to hold down a job and are far less 'intelligent or evolved' than me.

Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats.

Believing that having jobs, shirts, shoes and buildings makes us the most evolved creature on the planet is human centric hubris - We're a semi-sentient vehicle for viruses and bacteria. We're also a species that destroys its own environment, and who's success is entirely based upon the exploitation of a limited resource (fossil fuels) - which we poison our own environment and ourselves with, and have no feasible replacement for.

Once that runs out, the great human experiment is over. Humanity will no be able to sustain itself at even remotely its 'great level' without a viable substitute - and our solution seems to be use more.

We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Oct 17 5.22pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Sure, but Marxists all the same. Doesn't make them Communists though. I'm quite interested in Marxism, I'm not a communist either and never have been. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Oct 17 5.22pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Sure, but Marxists all the same.

Doesn't make them Communists though. I'm quite interested in Marxism, I'm not a communist either and never have been.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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.TUX. 23 Oct 17 5.24pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 What is capitalism, UK style. Materialism, consumerism, inequality, increasing poverty including child poverty, homelessness, exclusion social deprivation, ruined prison system, law only for the rich, desperate housing situation. I could go on and it is quite preventable IMO. A left wing labour government could tackle some of these but not the tories who have caused most of the problems. What is the point of any system that does not benefit the majority only a few rich people. That is the point. It thrives not only due to people being told they are doing fine, but people believing they are doing fine because somebody told them they are...... despite all the evidence. Baffling, absolutely baffling. As for the Free Market Capitalism myth that far too many still cling on to today, that ship sailed many years ago. Buy Litecoin.
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.TUX.

23 Oct 17 5.24pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

What is capitalism, UK style.

Materialism, consumerism, inequality, increasing poverty including child poverty, homelessness, exclusion social deprivation, ruined prison system, law only for the rich, desperate housing situation.

I could go on and it is quite preventable IMO.

A left wing labour government could tackle some of these but not the tories who have caused most of the problems.

What is the point of any system that does not benefit the majority only a few rich people.

That is the point.
It thrives not only due to people being told they are doing fine, but people believing they are doing fine because somebody told them they are...... despite all the evidence.
Baffling, absolutely baffling.

As for the Free Market Capitalism myth that far too many still cling on to today, that ship sailed many years ago.

Buy Litecoin.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.25pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Doesn't make them Communists though. I'm quite interested in Marxism, I'm not a communist either and never have been. So not all marxists are communists, but all communists are marxists - apart from the Chinese 'communists' presumably. Edited by hedgehog50 (23 Oct 2017 5.26pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.25pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Doesn't make them Communists though. I'm quite interested in Marxism, I'm not a communist either and never have been.

So not all marxists are communists, but all communists are marxists - apart from the Chinese 'communists' presumably.

Edited by hedgehog50 (23 Oct 2017 5.26pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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.TUX. 23 Oct 17 5.26pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment. I'd question your human centric version of success. Cats and Dogs, with far less intelligence, seem to have done a remarkable job of achieving the same kinds of achievements as humans, by getting humans to do all the work. My cats enjoy regular meals, comforts and shelter, without having to hold down a job and are far less 'intelligent or evolved' than me. Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats. Believing that having jobs, shirts, shoes and buildings makes us the most evolved creature on the planet is human centric hubris - We're a semi-sentient vehicle for viruses and bacteria. We're also a species that destroys its own environment, and who's success is entirely based upon the exploitation of a limited resource (fossil fuels) - which we poison our own environment and ourselves with, and have no feasible replacement for. Once that runs out, the great human experiment is over. Humanity will no be able to sustain itself at even remotely its 'great level' without a viable substitute - and our solution seems to be use more. We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect. Well said. Buy Litecoin.
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.TUX.

23 Oct 17 5.26pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment.

Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats.

We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect.

Well said.

Buy Litecoin.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.28pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment. I'd question your human centric version of success. Cats and Dogs, with far less intelligence, seem to have done a remarkable job of achieving the same kinds of achievements as humans, by getting humans to do all the work. My cats enjoy regular meals, comforts and shelter, without having to hold down a job and are far less 'intelligent or evolved' than me. Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats. Believing that having jobs, shirts, shoes and buildings makes us the most evolved creature on the planet is human centric hubris - We're a semi-sentient vehicle for viruses and bacteria. We're also a species that destroys its own environment, and who's success is entirely based upon the exploitation of a limited resource (fossil fuels) - which we poison our own environment and ourselves with, and have no feasible replacement for. Once that runs out, the great human experiment is over. Humanity will no be able to sustain itself at even remotely its 'great level' without a viable substitute - and our solution seems to be use more. We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect. Cats and dogs don't do so well in China... We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.28pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment.

Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats.

We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect.

Cats and dogs don't do so well in China...

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.29pm
Originally posted by .TUX. That is the point. It thrives not only due to people being told they are doing fine, but people believing they are doing fine because somebody told them they are...... despite all the evidence. Baffling, absolutely baffling. As for the Free Market Capitalism myth that far too many still cling on to today, that ship sailed many years ago. What's your answer then TUX? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 23 Oct 17 5.29pm

Originally posted by .TUX.

As for the Free Market Capitalism myth that far too many still cling on to today, that ship sailed many years ago.

What's your answer then TUX?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Oct 17 5.31pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 It isn't but so what anyway. If it was marxist and made sense it would be ok by me. Other posters here sorry but I am quite happy to consider other systems, ranting on every day about commies and marxists in answer to every subject is ridiculous. I doubt if marx is relevant today personally but that's up to me. You'd be surprised. The notion that society exists a conflicting discourses has its basis in Marxism. The philosophy of both Focault, also has its basis in Marxism. People tend to see Marxist as being the same as Marxist-Lenninist, or Marxist-Stalinist which is somewhat incorrect. The philosophical writings of Marx and Engles, along with Webber, are largely the basis of most of the reliable theories of social dynamics (along with neo-Freudianism, Micro-Interactionalists and Neo-Marxism are central to academia - even among right wing academics. Society exists as a conflict between social groups and ideas. That's an inherently Marxist theory (although Webber was much more on the money). But oddly, a lot of modern society is rooted in ideas that stem from Marxist philosophy. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Oct 17 5.31pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

It isn't but so what anyway.

If it was marxist and made sense it would be ok by me.

Other posters here sorry but I am quite happy to consider other systems, ranting on every day about commies and marxists in answer to every subject is ridiculous.

I doubt if marx is relevant today personally but that's up to me.

You'd be surprised. The notion that society exists a conflicting discourses has its basis in Marxism. The philosophy of both Focault, also has its basis in Marxism.

People tend to see Marxist as being the same as Marxist-Lenninist, or Marxist-Stalinist which is somewhat incorrect. The philosophical writings of Marx and Engles, along with Webber, are largely the basis of most of the reliable theories of social dynamics (along with neo-Freudianism, Micro-Interactionalists and Neo-Marxism are central to academia - even among right wing academics.

Society exists as a conflict between social groups and ideas. That's an inherently Marxist theory (although Webber was much more on the money).

But oddly, a lot of modern society is rooted in ideas that stem from Marxist philosophy.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Oct 17 5.32pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Cats and dogs don't do so well in China... Those that are pets do better than many Chinese. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Oct 17 5.32pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Cats and dogs don't do so well in China...

Those that are pets do better than many Chinese.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Oct 17 5.38pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 So not all marxists are communists, but all communists are marxists - apart from the Chinese 'communists' presumably. Edited by hedgehog50 (23 Oct 2017 5.26pm) Yes - Communism, notably Marxist-Lenninism and Maoist, borrow heavily from Marxist theory. The term communist, is popularised by Marx, but it comes from the influence of the French Communes of Marx's time - But yes, all communists are Marxist. But it doesn't follow that any one influenced by Marx is a communist. Its not all the Communist Manifesto. I'd recommend reading the other stuff, except its boring as f**k and almost impossible to digest. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Oct 17 5.38pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

So not all marxists are communists, but all communists are marxists - apart from the Chinese 'communists' presumably.

Edited by hedgehog50 (23 Oct 2017 5.26pm)

Yes - Communism, notably Marxist-Lenninism and Maoist, borrow heavily from Marxist theory. The term communist, is popularised by Marx, but it comes from the influence of the French Communes of Marx's time - But yes, all communists are Marxist.

But it doesn't follow that any one influenced by Marx is a communist.

Its not all the Communist Manifesto. I'd recommend reading the other stuff, except its boring as f**k and almost impossible to digest.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 23 Oct 17 5.38pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Doesn't make them Communists though. I'm quite interested in Marxism, I'm not a communist either and never have been. Well, Marx wrote the communist manifesto....so....We are just talking different types of communist aren't we.. I've always been a red Tory so I've always liked aspects of it as well. But it just doesn't work as the dominant system. The problem with the leaders of Labour is that I don't see them recognising that. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

23 Oct 17 5.38pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Doesn't make them Communists though. I'm quite interested in Marxism, I'm not a communist either and never have been.

Well, Marx wrote the communist manifesto....so....We are just talking different types of communist aren't we..

I've always been a red Tory so I've always liked aspects of it as well. But it just doesn't work as the dominant system.

The problem with the leaders of Labour is that I don't see them recognising that.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Oct 17 5.38pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment. I'd question your human centric version of success. Cats and Dogs, with far less intelligence, seem to have done a remarkable job of achieving the same kinds of achievements as humans, by getting humans to do all the work. My cats enjoy regular meals, comforts and shelter, without having to hold down a job and are far less 'intelligent or evolved' than me. Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats. Believing that having jobs, shirts, shoes and buildings makes us the most evolved creature on the planet is human centric hubris - We're a semi-sentient vehicle for viruses and bacteria. We're also a species that destroys its own environment, and who's success is entirely based upon the exploitation of a limited resource (fossil fuels) - which we poison our own environment and ourselves with, and have no feasible replacement for. Once that runs out, the great human experiment is over. Humanity will no be able to sustain itself at even remotely its 'great level' without a viable substitute - and our solution seems to be use more. We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect. An interesting argument and not one that bacteria will be having any time ever. I will concede that various types of bacteria can survive in almost any environment but that is only one aspect of success. Sure they will be around after us but will never achieve anything beyond that in their current form. The higher species evolve from bactria of course and perhaps that is their greatest value. I think we do control environment, not entirely for sure, and not alasys on purpose, but we adapt the environment to suit us on a grand global scale. That sets us apart. Of course other creatures do survive in our wake but as things are going, we could soon be the only mammal species remaining on Earth outside of domesticated animals.
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Oct 17 5.38pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Influence the environment, we can't control it, nor can we control the consequence of our influence over our environment.

Hell they even seem to secrete bacteria that causes people exposed to cats, to be attracted to cats.

We're impressive, but by no means are we the most evolved species on the planet. If you want to see perfectly evolved species, look a viruses and bacteria - simple and perfect.

An interesting argument and not one that bacteria will be having any time ever. I will concede that various types of bacteria can survive in almost any environment but that is only one aspect of success. Sure they will be around after us but will never achieve anything beyond that in their current form. The higher species evolve from bactria of course and perhaps that is their greatest value.

I think we do control environment, not entirely for sure, and not alasys on purpose, but we adapt the environment to suit us on a grand global scale. That sets us apart.
Of course other creatures do survive in our wake but as things are going, we could soon be the only mammal species remaining on Earth outside of domesticated animals.

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