Bulger killer recalled to prison

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jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Nov 17 10.38am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays This comes down to the question of free will. Sam Harris has some excellent videos on this. If you were born with the same genetics and had the same upbringing and had met the same people you would be exactly the same as anyone in history. It's a horrible thought but it makes sense. All you can do with a certain set of murderers is put a gun to their heads and pull the trigger.....there is no point in hating them, they are products....But I totally understand why we hate them. Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Nov 2017 7.01pm) I think that's a reasonable assertion, but it is a scientific assumption based on a hypothetical scenario - but I think its a reliable assumption for a thought experiment (in reality, we have to allow for some chaos in the system). The problem with this is that it can only ever be an assumption based on perfect laboratory conditions in which every variable is controllable. Reality, even in very controlled experiments, could never achieve this. That of course disproves free will, because for free will to exist, you'd have to have variance. Its also an argument against 'offing the individual', as if you accept the assumption as true, such individuals represents a treasury of scientific knowledge - Because if all these factors you list are causal - you should be able to identify key determinant characteristics - which would allow you to identify a set of criteria of factors that would determine high probability when coupled with social factors. Then you can identify people in society who fit into a high risk category, and by changing their social circumstances, prevent such individuals becoming monsters in the first place. Additionally, with time and study, you could identify key characteristics and using genetic engineering, pharmacological or other interventions, address those characteristics early in child hood. Arguably its a somewhat eugenics borderline fascist approach, however it can be made to serve a humane purpose. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 24 Nov 17 10.38am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

This comes down to the question of free will. Sam Harris has some excellent videos on this.

If you were born with the same genetics and had the same upbringing and had met the same people you would be exactly the same as anyone in history.

It's a horrible thought but it makes sense.

All you can do with a certain set of murderers is put a gun to their heads and pull the trigger.....there is no point in hating them, they are products....But I totally understand why we hate them.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Nov 2017 7.01pm)

I think that's a reasonable assertion, but it is a scientific assumption based on a hypothetical scenario - but I think its a reliable assumption for a thought experiment (in reality, we have to allow for some chaos in the system).

The problem with this is that it can only ever be an assumption based on perfect laboratory conditions in which every variable is controllable. Reality, even in very controlled experiments, could never achieve this.

That of course disproves free will, because for free will to exist, you'd have to have variance.

Its also an argument against 'offing the individual', as if you accept the assumption as true, such individuals represents a treasury of scientific knowledge - Because if all these factors you list are causal - you should be able to identify key determinant characteristics - which would allow you to identify a set of criteria of factors that would determine high probability when coupled with social factors.

Then you can identify people in society who fit into a high risk category, and by changing their social circumstances, prevent such individuals becoming monsters in the first place.

Additionally, with time and study, you could identify key characteristics and using genetic engineering, pharmacological or other interventions, address those characteristics early in child hood.

Arguably its a somewhat eugenics borderline fascist approach, however it can be made to serve a humane purpose.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Nov 17 10.53am
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Other than himself you mean - and possibly Eva? (Oh, and his dog.) Edited by hedgehog50 (23 Nov 2017 5.56pm) Point stands, we tend to see Hitler as the problem, rather than the fact that so many people other than him, actually carried out such atrocities. Some of these people probably were what we'd call sociopaths and psychopaths, but most wouldn't have been. The idea of Hitler as the evil one, gives us a false idea of human nature, in which we see only a few capable of atrocity, but arguably, that's not true - Its within us all, to some degree or another. For some, it definitely comes much easier. This tends to conflict with our idealised view of a positive human nature, rather than a bestial one. All of us, have the capacity to do very terrible things, dependent on the circumstances. Its our socialisation, our ethical learning and understanding of civilisation that curtail this. I suspect that all children are 'sociopaths' in waiting, and its their socialisation, parenting that make the difference (in general, I suspect that a few of the outliers carry factors from birth such as lesions to the neo-cortex). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 24 Nov 17 10.53am

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Other than himself you mean - and possibly Eva? (Oh, and his dog.)

Edited by hedgehog50 (23 Nov 2017 5.56pm)

Point stands, we tend to see Hitler as the problem, rather than the fact that so many people other than him, actually carried out such atrocities. Some of these people probably were what we'd call sociopaths and psychopaths, but most wouldn't have been.

The idea of Hitler as the evil one, gives us a false idea of human nature, in which we see only a few capable of atrocity, but arguably, that's not true - Its within us all, to some degree or another. For some, it definitely comes much easier. This tends to conflict with our idealised view of a positive human nature, rather than a bestial one.

All of us, have the capacity to do very terrible things, dependent on the circumstances. Its our socialisation, our ethical learning and understanding of civilisation that curtail this.

I suspect that all children are 'sociopaths' in waiting, and its their socialisation, parenting that make the difference (in general, I suspect that a few of the outliers carry factors from birth such as lesions to the neo-cortex).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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npn Crowborough 24 Nov 17 11.01am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 All of us, have the capacity to do very terrible things, dependent on the circumstances. Its our socialisation, our ethical learning and understanding of civilisation that curtail this. I've thought about that often, whenever I see a film portraying, typically, war crimes and ISIS-type atrocities. It takes a strong person to choose death over doing as they are told, and there are always ways to convince yourself you're doing the right thing ("if I'm dead, someone else will do it anyway, and then there's more death rather than less". I think everyone would like to think they are strong enough to say no and die in the victim's place, but I suspect far more of us would go along with it in the same situation. Nazi's killing people is an atrocity, allies summarily executing prisoners (as I'm sure happened) is just war. That doesn't include the animals who come up with the plans in the first place, of course.
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npn

Crowborough 24 Nov 17 11.01am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

All of us, have the capacity to do very terrible things, dependent on the circumstances. Its our socialisation, our ethical learning and understanding of civilisation that curtail this.

I've thought about that often, whenever I see a film portraying, typically, war crimes and ISIS-type atrocities. It takes a strong person to choose death over doing as they are told, and there are always ways to convince yourself you're doing the right thing ("if I'm dead, someone else will do it anyway, and then there's more death rather than less".

I think everyone would like to think they are strong enough to say no and die in the victim's place, but I suspect far more of us would go along with it in the same situation.

Nazi's killing people is an atrocity, allies summarily executing prisoners (as I'm sure happened) is just war.

That doesn't include the animals who come up with the plans in the first place, of course.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Nov 17 1.17pm
Originally posted by npn I've thought about that often, whenever I see a film portraying, typically, war crimes and ISIS-type atrocities. It takes a strong person to choose death over doing as they are told, and there are always ways to convince yourself you're doing the right thing ("if I'm dead, someone else will do it anyway, and then there's more death rather than less". I think everyone would like to think they are strong enough to say no and die in the victim's place, but I suspect far more of us would go along with it in the same situation. Nazi's killing people is an atrocity, allies summarily executing prisoners (as I'm sure happened) is just war. That doesn't include the animals who come up with the plans in the first place, of course. Thing is, the SS and IS weren't forcing people to commit atrocities - these were volunteers. It often seems like the option is 'do this or you die', but the Waffen-SS were a volunteer force. Same with most of IS. I think after the fact, people suddenly claim that they were 'only following orders' or 'forced to do it through fear', but that's usually when they're facing the consequences. Its a reasonable doubt defence. Also those who joined the SS Camps, weren't punished if they couldn't carry out their orders, they were just transferred back out to SS units. The SS realised that not everyone would have the stomach for such work (and they specifically rotated staff at camps to ensure they weren't too traumatised by their 'work'). Most of the time, no ones getting executed for not carrying out atrocities, or not taking part. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 24 Nov 17 1.17pm

Originally posted by npn

I think everyone would like to think they are strong enough to say no and die in the victim's place, but I suspect far more of us would go along with it in the same situation.

Nazi's killing people is an atrocity, allies summarily executing prisoners (as I'm sure happened) is just war.

That doesn't include the animals who come up with the plans in the first place, of course.

Thing is, the SS and IS weren't forcing people to commit atrocities - these were volunteers. It often seems like the option is 'do this or you die', but the Waffen-SS were a volunteer force. Same with most of IS.

I think after the fact, people suddenly claim that they were 'only following orders' or 'forced to do it through fear', but that's usually when they're facing the consequences. Its a reasonable doubt defence.

Also those who joined the SS Camps, weren't punished if they couldn't carry out their orders, they were just transferred back out to SS units. The SS realised that not everyone would have the stomach for such work (and they specifically rotated staff at camps to ensure they weren't too traumatised by their 'work').

Most of the time, no ones getting executed for not carrying out atrocities, or not taking part.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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