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The Strange Death of Europe - Douglas K Murry

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View Harry Beever's Profile Harry Beever Flag Newbury 06 Dec 17 8.08am Send a Private Message to Harry Beever Add Harry Beever as a friend

Originally posted by Park Road

For those who don't know, Halal is a special way of killing animals (for religious reasons) without any stunning or bolt pistols. Instead, a sharp knife is used to cut the jugular vein which apparantly stops all feeling before the animal realises. Also, the slaughter is done in a more "humane" environment, apparantly no difference in cruelty than our methods.
A friend who works in a slaughter house once told me that pigs waiting to be slaughtered are intelligent enough to know their fate and squeel in sheer panic of the fate that awaits them.

Or in other words bleeding to death while still conscious. I know which way i’d prefer to go. How do you explain that cutting the jugular stops all feeling? Also how is it a more humane environment?

 

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Park Road Flag 06 Dec 17 8.12am

Originally posted by Harry Beever

Or in other words bleeding to death while still conscious. I know which way i’d prefer to go. How do you explain that cutting the jugular stops all feeling? Also how is it a more humane environment?

I'm just the messenger and going on evidence compiled by various scientists.
Bottom line is there is no humane way to kill anything

 

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View Harry Beever's Profile Harry Beever Flag Newbury 06 Dec 17 8.23am Send a Private Message to Harry Beever Add Harry Beever as a friend

Originally posted by Park Road

I'm just the messenger and going on evidence compiled by various scientists.
Bottom line is there is no humane way to kill anything

Which evidence? There is definitely a humane way to kill something. It’s with the instant loss of consciousness and pain that is delivered by a captive bolt gun or by stunning prior to exsanguination. 80% of halal meat is stunned prior to slaughter which i’m fine with. It’s the 20% that I’m not. Attaching link from the British Veterinary Association regarding their position on welfare at slaughter who should have a decent understanding about welfare. Anyway let’s save this for another thread as starting to stray off topic...

[Link]

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 06 Dec 17 8.27am

How long before a few Muslims burning poppies is held up to show the lady at the checkout in my local Sainsbury's should be viewed with suspicion?

 

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Park Road Flag 06 Dec 17 8.33am

Originally posted by Harry Beever

Which evidence? There is definitely a humane way to kill something. It’s with the instant loss of consciousness and pain that is delivered by a captive bolt gun or by stunning prior to exsanguination. 80% of halal meat is stunned prior to slaughter which i’m fine with. It’s the 20% that I’m not. Attaching link from the British Veterinary Association regarding their position on welfare at slaughter who should have a decent understanding about welfare. [red]Anyway let’s save this for another thread as starting to stray off topic...

[Link]

OK but I'll leave you with this considering you asked.

The question of how an animal should be slaughtered to avoid cruelty is a different one. It is true that when the blood flows from the throat of an animal it looks violent, but just because meat is now bought neatly and hygienically packaged on supermarket shelves does not mean the animal didn’t have to die? Non-Islamic slaughter methods dictate that the animal should be rendered unconscious before slaughter. This is usually achieved by stunning or electrocution. Is it less painful to shoot a bolt into a sheep’s brain or to ring a chicken’s neck than to slit its throat? To watch the procedure does not objectively tell us what the animal feels.
The scientific facts
A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined the claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout.
The Halal method
With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages.
The Western method
Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal ceases to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymen’s terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move.
Appearances can deceive
Not all is what it seems, then. Those who want to outlaw Islamic slaughter, arguing for a humane method of killing animals for food, are actually more concerned about the feelings of people than those of the animals on whose behalf they appear to speak. The stunning method makes mass butchery easier and looks more palatable for the consumer who can deceive himself that the animal did not feel any pain when he goes to buy his cleanly wrapped parcel of meat from the supermarket. Islamic slaughter, on the other hand, does not try to deny that meat consumption means that animals have to die, but is designed to ensure that their loss of life is achieved with a minimum amount of pain.

 

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 06 Dec 17 10.07am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

I've deleted a few posts and would be grateful if everyone could stick to discussing the topic without the need for sniping and posturing

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Dec 17 11.18am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

How long before a few Muslims burning poppies is held up to show the lady at the checkout in my local Sainsbury's should be viewed with suspicion?

The same as Germans, Italians and Irish were in the past.
It's human nature.
Hardly something specific to today or to Muslims.

 

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View Harry Beever's Profile Harry Beever Flag Newbury 06 Dec 17 12.06pm Send a Private Message to Harry Beever Add Harry Beever as a friend

Originally posted by Park Road

OK but I'll leave you with this considering you asked.

The question of how an animal should be slaughtered to avoid cruelty is a different one. It is true that when the blood flows from the throat of an animal it looks violent, but just because meat is now bought neatly and hygienically packaged on supermarket shelves does not mean the animal didn’t have to die? Non-Islamic slaughter methods dictate that the animal should be rendered unconscious before slaughter. This is usually achieved by stunning or electrocution. Is it less painful to shoot a bolt into a sheep’s brain or to ring a chicken’s neck than to slit its throat? To watch the procedure does not objectively tell us what the animal feels.
The scientific facts
A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined the claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout.
The Halal method
With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages.
The Western method
Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal ceases to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymen’s terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move.
Appearances can deceive
Not all is what it seems, then. Those who want to outlaw Islamic slaughter, arguing for a humane method of killing animals for food, are actually more concerned about the feelings of people than those of the animals on whose behalf they appear to speak. The stunning method makes mass butchery easier and looks more palatable for the consumer who can deceive himself that the animal did not feel any pain when he goes to buy his cleanly wrapped parcel of meat from the supermarket. Islamic slaughter, on the other hand, does not try to deny that meat consumption means that animals have to die, but is designed to ensure that their loss of life is achieved with a minimum amount of pain.

On Midlands Eagle’s request will make this my last post on this I promise!

EEG’s and ECG’s measure nothing but electrical activity in the brain and heart. They are not a direct reflection of pain and suffering. Currently, to my understanding, it remains impossible to objectively measure pain. If it was possible the number of whiplash claims post car accident would evaporate over night. This means we are still in a position of judging pain relatively crudely, principally based on behaviour, observing motion for orthopaedic pain and trusting people describing it. This makes it very challenging for doctors dealing with infants, people with severe learning difficulties or diseases affecting communication and vets with animals. It’s only really possible to judge your own pain and project it, making the assumption that someone else feels the same following the same stimulus that you have historically experienced. I used to think people with back pain were making a fuss over nothing until I started to have problems myself! I would like to read the study you refer to but to me it sounds overly simplistic.

I have worked in a slaughter house, a long time ago. They are visually gruesome places and not for the faint hearted but I was satisfied with the respect the staff gave to the animals and the humane manner in which they were killed. A captive bolt to the brain sounds horrendous but it instantaneously kills, which slitting a throat does not.

Making an assessment on what it’s like to die is impossible as no one has come back to tell us. I have never understood people saying “I hear drowning is supposed to be a nice way to die”! As if anyone’s returned and said “that was great, far better then overdosing on heroin”!

For the time being we have to acknowledge that we don’t know for sure what’s happening during the process of an animal dieing. I know that when I cut myself with a sharp knife it hurts, not instantly but it does and we simply can’t be confident that these animals will die quickly enough to not suffer. Logic tells me that the kindest death is therefore likely the swiftest. I’ll leave it there but respect your right to disagree!

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Dec 17 12.29pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Very nice, but in your world, nothing is ever entirely true or untrue. That means that your assertion is not true either.
Some things you just have to accept as fact if the evidence is undeniable. Not everything can be spun or reinterpreted.

It establishes that truth is as subjective as any experience.

Facts aren't truth, they're evidence of the truth. I think, being a scientist by background, and a rationalist, that only evidence has value. Opinion and supposition, are meaningless.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Dec 17 12.32pm

Originally posted by crystal balls

That graph doesn't show rape statistics in isolation; it includes a number of offences of a sexual nature. Figures for reported rape offences throughout the period have remained within the 5,500 - 6,500 per annum level, while convictions have remained around 190-200 per annum.

I find it amusing that people are arguing over things like ethnicity, and religion, when the real scandal here is how 6500 reported rapes can end up with 200 convictions.

That's a real f**king issue.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Jimenez's Profile Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 06 Dec 17 12.36pm Send a Private Message to Jimenez Add Jimenez as a friend

Certainly Halal killing should be banned It is in Denmark & even Belgium. Kind of strange how many animal activists steer well clear of this subject but are all over Fox Hunting, Mink Farming, Pharmaceutical research & even Foie Gras. I wonder why?

 


Pro USA & Israel

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 Dec 17 12.37pm

Originally posted by Harry Beever

Making an assessment on what it’s like to die is impossible as no one has come back to tell us. I have never understood people saying “I hear drowning is supposed to be a nice way to die”! As if anyone’s returned and said “that was great, far better then overdosing on heroin”!

Its not, according to people who have been rescued from drowning, its incredibly painful way to die. The mistake I think is that people are thinking its like slow asphyxia (over hours) which is apparently fairly peaceful, as the body slowly shuts down due to lack of oxygen over a long period of time - and the individual loses consciousness long before the physical pain of oxygen deprivation sets in.

For the record, a overdoes of drugs like heroin, which is a painkiller, does seem to be a remarkably pleasant way to die - It generally causes the loss of consciousness before the organs slow to a stop.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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