Toby Young resigns!

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Stirlingsays 09 Jan 18 6.09pm
Originally posted by serial thriller To me, it's more the barefaced nepotism of his appointment that I find offensive. I expect any upper-middle class establishmentarian white guy to be a bit of a sexist, but the fact that they clog up the corridors of power with their self-entitled stench is horrible. Isn't that a sexist comment itself though?....and really.....the the unnecessary reference to his skin colour? Also, which class and skin colour would you prefer to be clogging up the corridors of power exactly? Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 6.13pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Jan 18 6.09pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

To me, it's more the barefaced nepotism of his appointment that I find offensive. I expect any upper-middle class establishmentarian white guy to be a bit of a sexist, but the fact that they clog up the corridors of power with their self-entitled stench is horrible.

Isn't that a sexist comment itself though?....and really.....the the unnecessary reference to his skin colour?

Also, which class and skin colour would you prefer to be clogging up the corridors of power exactly?

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 6.13pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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serial thriller The Promised Land 09 Jan 18 6.24pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Isn't that a sexist comment itself though?....and really.....the the unnecessary reference to his skin colour? Also, which class and skin colour would you prefer to be clogging up the corridors of power exactly? Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 6.10pm) Stirling. I've attached a picture of the latest cabinet. In it you will see a group of people who, in their gender, race and class, are completely unrepresentative of the country and citizens who they govern. To pretend, as you seem to be doing, that race and gender are not intertwined within the power relations of our society is ridiculous. Is female or BME representation the sole basis of how we should judge power? Of course not, but its absence is evidence that power is detached from the streets, from the disenfranchised, from the very people who, in my eyes, it should be working for. I work in a school with kids who have been kicked out of mainstream education, and often feel alienated and lack any confidence in themselves. They are disproportionately black, and disproportionately from low economic backgrounds. We recently showed them a picture of Theresa May, and none of them knew who she was. And why should they? What has she ever done for them, and what has the thing she represents - Parliament - done for them in recent memory? With alienation comes division apathy and ultimately a destructive mentality. I see that, first hand, every day. The last thing these kids need is an education adviser like Toby Young, who pontificates from on high but would run crying back to his cushy journo job the first day he tried to discipline these kids. Attachment: _99520723_mediaitem99520718.jpg (51.54Kb) If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 09 Jan 18 6.24pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Isn't that a sexist comment itself though?....and really.....the the unnecessary reference to his skin colour?

Also, which class and skin colour would you prefer to be clogging up the corridors of power exactly?

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 6.10pm)

Stirling. I've attached a picture of the latest cabinet. In it you will see a group of people who, in their gender, race and class, are completely unrepresentative of the country and citizens who they govern.

To pretend, as you seem to be doing, that race and gender are not intertwined within the power relations of our society is ridiculous. Is female or BME representation the sole basis of how we should judge power? Of course not, but its absence is evidence that power is detached from the streets, from the disenfranchised, from the very people who, in my eyes, it should be working for.

I work in a school with kids who have been kicked out of mainstream education, and often feel alienated and lack any confidence in themselves. They are disproportionately black, and disproportionately from low economic backgrounds. We recently showed them a picture of Theresa May, and none of them knew who she was. And why should they? What has she ever done for them, and what has the thing she represents - Parliament - done for them in recent memory?

With alienation comes division apathy and ultimately a destructive mentality. I see that, first hand, every day. The last thing these kids need is an education adviser like Toby Young, who pontificates from on high but would run crying back to his cushy journo job the first day he tried to discipline these kids.

Attachment: _99520723_mediaitem99520718.jpg (51.54Kb)

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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chelys London 09 Jan 18 6.47pm
Originally posted by serial thriller Stirling. I've attached a picture of the latest cabinet. In it you will see a group of people who, in their gender, race and class, are completely unrepresentative of the country and citizens who they govern. To pretend, as you seem to be doing, that race and gender are not intertwined within the power relations of our society is ridiculous. Is female or BME representation the sole basis of how we should judge power? Of course not, but its absence is evidence that power is detached from the streets, from the disenfranchised, from the very people who, in my eyes, it should be working for. I work in a school with kids who have been kicked out of mainstream education, and often feel alienated and lack any confidence in themselves. They are disproportionately black, and disproportionately from low economic backgrounds. We recently showed them a picture of Theresa May, and none of them knew who she was. And why should they? What has she ever done for them, and what has the thing she represents - Parliament - done for them in recent memory? With alienation comes division apathy and ultimately a destructive mentality. I see that, first hand, every day. The last thing these kids need is an education adviser like Toby Young, who pontificates from on high but would run crying back to his cushy journo job the first day he tried to discipline these kids. Surely the Cabinet should be made up of people best able to do the jobs, regardless of their gender, race and class.
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chelys

London 09 Jan 18 6.47pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

Surely the Cabinet should be made up of people best able to do the jobs, regardless of their gender, race and class.

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serial thriller The Promised Land 09 Jan 18 7.29pm
Originally posted by chelys Surely the Cabinet should be made up of people best able to do the jobs, regardless of their gender, race and class. Of course - and this current group of white posh (mainly) men are hopeless at their jobs! If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 09 Jan 18 7.29pm

Originally posted by chelys

Surely the Cabinet should be made up of people best able to do the jobs, regardless of their gender, race and class.

Of course - and this current group of white posh (mainly) men are hopeless at their jobs!

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Stirlingsays 09 Jan 18 7.35pm
Originally posted by serial thriller Stirling. I've attached a picture of the latest cabinet. In it you will see a group of people who, in their gender, race and class, are completely unrepresentative of the country and citizens who they govern. I have a little sympathy for this, but only a little. I believe that opportunities should be for as many within the tax paid society as possible....however, meritocracy isn't about your skin colour or your race. And actually it isn't that unrepresentative at all when you factor in the numbers from each group that are qualified to access these positions. Originally posted by serial thriller To pretend, as you seem to be doing, that race and gender are not intertwined within the power relations of our society is ridiculous. Is female or BME representation the sole basis of how we should judge power? Of course not, but its absence is evidence that power is detached from the streets, from the disenfranchised, from the very people who, in my eyes, it should be working for. I've just witnessed a load of feminist Mps and beta males just get Toby Young the sack. Don't talk to me about power. But I do agree with efforts to support greater social mobility and better representation for the lower classes....but not purely on your skin colour. Originally posted by serial thriller I work in a school with kids who have been kicked out of mainstream education, and often feel alienated and lack any confidence in themselves. They are disproportionately black, and disproportionately from low economic backgrounds. We recently showed them a picture of Theresa May, and none of them knew who she was. And why should they? What has she ever done for them, and what has the thing she represents - Parliament - done for them in recent memory? With alienation comes division apathy and ultimately a destructive mentality. I see that, first hand, every day. The last thing these kids need is an education adviser like Toby Young, who pontificates from on high but would run crying back to his cushy journo job the first day he tried to discipline these kids. I come from a deprived and violent working class background. I have also worked as a secondary teacher for quite a few years. In my view you are willing to give bad family cultures towards education excuses here. What has May ever done for them? How about sit atop of a nation that pays for them to have free education and also pay your wages. I certainly hope you aren't feeding them the excuses you promoted here. Bad family culture is the real reason these children are let down....Sure, I agree, poor children don't get the same life chances that families with money and location can provide....Sure, I agree that isn't fair...but that is where the excuses end for me. The Asians that came here and now sit atop of the highest earning group are evidence that good families don't make excuses like alienation or racism....they work as damn hard as they can and break in. Ultimately someone is successful in life if they can provide value to a business......If you can do that, then the vast majority of businesses really don't give a damn what your race or gender is.....suggestions to the contrary are pure over emotional crap......If you can't do that and point to excuses.....then that's failure, and no amount of affirmative action programmes will create success....as the US has seen. Is life fair.....no.....Does everyone start at the same position on the starting grid.....no.....Should society look to stop the middle classes from hogging all the best in society for themselves......yeah to the extent that they block the 'just as good' working class from breaking in. Should this be done because of your skin colour or what you have between your legs.....Hell no. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 7.39pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Jan 18 7.35pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

I have a little sympathy for this, but only a little.

I believe that opportunities should be for as many within the tax paid society as possible....however, meritocracy isn't about your skin colour or your race.

And actually it isn't that unrepresentative at all when you factor in the numbers from each group that are qualified to access these positions.

Originally posted by serial thriller

I've just witnessed a load of feminist Mps and beta males just get Toby Young the sack.

Don't talk to me about power.

But I do agree with efforts to support greater social mobility and better representation for the lower classes....but not purely on your skin colour.

Originally posted by serial thriller

I come from a deprived and violent working class background. I have also worked as a secondary teacher for quite a few years. In my view you are willing to give bad family cultures towards education excuses here.

What has May ever done for them? How about sit atop of a nation that pays for them to have free education and also pay your wages. I certainly hope you aren't feeding them the excuses you promoted here.

Bad family culture is the real reason these children are let down....Sure, I agree, poor children don't get the same life chances that families with money and location can provide....Sure, I agree that isn't fair...but that is where the excuses end for me.

The Asians that came here and now sit atop of the highest earning group are evidence that good families don't make excuses like alienation or racism....they work as damn hard as they can and break in.

Ultimately someone is successful in life if they can provide value to a business......If you can do that, then the vast majority of businesses really don't give a damn what your race or gender is.....suggestions to the contrary are pure over emotional crap......If you can't do that and point to excuses.....then that's failure, and no amount of affirmative action programmes will create success....as the US has seen.

Is life fair.....no.....Does everyone start at the same position on the starting grid.....no.....Should society look to stop the middle classes from hogging all the best in society for themselves......yeah to the extent that they block the 'just as good' working class from breaking in.

Should this be done because of your skin colour or what you have between your legs.....Hell no.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 7.39pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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serial thriller The Promised Land 09 Jan 18 10.09pm
Stirling, I have no doubt that you are an excellent teacher as you are open minded and articulate, so I would rather you didn�t question my teaching skills. You are right that skin colour shouldn�t influence your social position. But there still remains the question:why are there no black people in the cabinet, but so many in places like where I teach? You mention Asians who have done well, but that totally disregards the reasons why each came to our country. Asians (as in Japanese, Korean etc) came typically with well established companies. Many black people came either from former colonies when legislation pushed for cheap labour to be imported, or else are asylum seekers, entering a Country which advocated phrenology, celebrated slavery and now stops and searches black people 1500% more than whites. To simply say skin colour doesn�t matter is to ignore the reality of the present and be blind to the past, in my opinion. And finally, on Toby Young, let�s not forget he wasn�t forced out by anyone other than who employed him, which is May, who listened to those in her electorate who argued he shouldn�t be in his position. That is accountability and democracy in action, not some shady purge. If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 09 Jan 18 10.09pm

Stirling, I have no doubt that you are an excellent teacher as you are open minded and articulate, so I would rather you didn�t question my teaching skills.

You are right that skin colour shouldn�t influence your social position. But there still remains the question:why are there no black people in the cabinet, but so many in places like where I teach? You mention Asians who have done well, but that totally disregards the reasons why each came to our country. Asians (as in Japanese, Korean etc) came typically with well established companies. Many black people came either from former colonies when legislation pushed for cheap labour to be imported, or else are asylum seekers, entering a Country which advocated phrenology, celebrated slavery and now stops and searches black people 1500% more than whites.

To simply say skin colour doesn�t matter is to ignore the reality of the present and be blind to the past, in my opinion.

And finally, on Toby Young, let�s not forget he wasn�t forced out by anyone other than who employed him, which is May, who listened to those in her electorate who argued he shouldn�t be in his position. That is accountability and democracy in action, not some shady purge.

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Stirlingsays 09 Jan 18 10.28pm
Originally posted by serial thriller Stirling, I have no doubt that you are an excellent teacher as you are open minded and articulate, so I would rather you didn�t question my teaching skills. You are right that skin colour shouldn�t influence your social position. But there still remains the question:why are there no black people in the cabinet, but so many in places like where I teach? You mention Asians who have done well, but that totally disregards the reasons why each came to our country. Asians (as in Japanese, Korean etc) came typically with well established companies. Many black people came either from former colonies when legislation pushed for cheap labour to be imported, or else are asylum seekers, entering a Country which advocated phrenology, celebrated slavery and now stops and searches black people 1500% more than whites. To simply say skin colour doesn�t matter is to ignore the reality of the present and be blind to the past, in my opinion. And finally, on Toby Young, let�s not forget he wasn�t forced out by anyone other than who employed him, which is May, who listened to those in her electorate who argued he shouldn�t be in his position. That is accountability and democracy in action, not some shady purge. Ultimately colour doesn't matter...attitude and ability does.....You can't with all seriousness state that racism exists for black people but not for Chinese, Koreans and Japanese? A kind of pick and choose racism.....There is racism out there but it's mainly subtle ...If you add value to a business...that's what matters. That's why Asians are on top. When I said Asians I'm talking Indians as well as Koreans, Chinese and Japanese anyway. Family culture makes a huge difference to success. The brightest student I ever taught at Nene in Peterborough was a black lad from their football academy which also used the school....Bloody good attitude and it all came from his Dad. Slavery? Oh my good god....You hit upon one of the excuse cultures that is used to justify failure...Look racism exists everywhere in the world but I imagine it's better here than most places. There is nothing holding back black people or any other person other than their attitude...in this country the group that preforms the worst is poor white children (who by the way are on the bottom of the educational ladder) So where is their slavery excuse? It's all about family culture and attitude towards education. We don't all start from the same start line but we are massively lucky to live in a country where hard work and a good attitude can get you access to a life worth living. If you are poor it's just going to require more work....and that's it. If they think the world is against them because they are black....jeepers. And Toby Young was forced out by constant protests in parliament by feminists both male and female and constant left wing media outrage.....don't give me soppy stuff that May....who employed him and defended him....suddenly changed her mind without that pressure....or that Young wasn't happy to go because of all that outraged nonsense. Progressives sack people and they have been doing it for ages now. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 10.59pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Jan 18 10.28pm

Originally posted by serial thriller

Stirling, I have no doubt that you are an excellent teacher as you are open minded and articulate, so I would rather you didn�t question my teaching skills.

To simply say skin colour doesn�t matter is to ignore the reality of the present and be blind to the past, in my opinion.

Ultimately colour doesn't matter...attitude and ability does.....You can't with all seriousness state that racism exists for black people but not for Chinese, Koreans and Japanese? A kind of pick and choose racism.....There is racism out there but it's mainly subtle ...If you add value to a business...that's what matters. That's why Asians are on top.

When I said Asians I'm talking Indians as well as Koreans, Chinese and Japanese anyway. Family culture makes a huge difference to success. The brightest student I ever taught at Nene in Peterborough was a black lad from their football academy which also used the school....Bloody good attitude and it all came from his Dad.

Slavery? Oh my good god....You hit upon one of the excuse cultures that is used to justify failure...Look racism exists everywhere in the world but I imagine it's better here than most places. There is nothing holding back black people or any other person other than their attitude...in this country the group that preforms the worst is poor white children (who by the way are on the bottom of the educational ladder)

So where is their slavery excuse?

It's all about family culture and attitude towards education.

We don't all start from the same start line but we are massively lucky to live in a country where hard work and a good attitude can get you access to a life worth living. If you are poor it's just going to require more work....and that's it.

If they think the world is against them because they are black....jeepers.

And Toby Young was forced out by constant protests in parliament by feminists both male and female and constant left wing media outrage.....don't give me soppy stuff that May....who employed him and defended him....suddenly changed her mind without that pressure....or that Young wasn't happy to go because of all that outraged nonsense.

Progressives sack people and they have been doing it for ages now.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jan 2018 10.59pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 10 Jan 18 10.19am
Originally posted by davenotamonkey One of his biggest critics thus far: Angela Rayner. Labour shadow education secretary. Left school at 16 without any A-C GCSE's. "Qualified" I am not going to defend Diane Abbott or Angela Rayner I can't stand Labour. I stand by my original comment as to his qualifications. Toby Young has a highly controversial career and whilst I appreciate he has a passion for Free schools I see no evidence that he was qualified for the job. I may be wrong of course. His appointment and the process that led to it seems murky at the moment. Labour will keep picking away at that scab to embarrass the government. I am a Tory but this stinks of "jobs for the boys". If it is all above board and he went through an open selection then fine. But right now the government has not proved that so Labour are making political capital. I am annoyed that the government keeps scoring own goals. The Tories need to get on the front foot come up with some decent policies and highlight the failings of the Labour party. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 10 Jan 18 10.19am

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

One of his biggest critics thus far:

Angela Rayner. Labour shadow education secretary. Left school at 16 without any A-C GCSE's.

"Qualified"

I am not going to defend Diane Abbott or Angela Rayner I can't stand Labour. I stand by my original comment as to his qualifications. Toby Young has a highly controversial career and whilst I appreciate he has a passion for Free schools I see no evidence that he was qualified for the job. I may be wrong of course.

His appointment and the process that led to it seems murky at the moment. Labour will keep picking away at that scab to embarrass the government. I am a Tory but this stinks of "jobs for the boys". If it is all above board and he went through an open selection then fine. But right now the government has not proved that so Labour are making political capital.

I am annoyed that the government keeps scoring own goals. The Tories need to get on the front foot come up with some decent policies and highlight the failings of the Labour party.

One more point

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matt_himself Matataland 10 Jan 18 1.49pm
Brillo taking Debbie Abrahams to task over the difference between Toby Young�s, Jared O�Maras and John McDonnells comments: [Link] Love Brillo. The best political interviewer in the country. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.� - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 10 Jan 18 1.49pm

Brillo taking Debbie Abrahams to task over the difference between Toby Young�s, Jared O�Maras and John McDonnells comments:

[Link]

Love Brillo. The best political interviewer in the country.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.� - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 10 Jan 18 1.51pm
Originally posted by chelys Surely the Cabinet should be made up of people best able to do the jobs, regardless of their gender, race and class. Surely it should be. It really isn't though, is it? Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)
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Mr_Gristle

In the land of Whelk Eaters 10 Jan 18 1.51pm

Originally posted by chelys

Surely the Cabinet should be made up of people best able to do the jobs, regardless of their gender, race and class.

Surely it should be. It really isn't though, is it?

Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

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Stirlingsays 10 Jan 18 1.56pm
Originally posted by Mr_Gristle Surely it should be. It really isn't though, is it? They pick from a limited talent pool of MPs. Leaderships of parties are normally compromise candidates...The cabinets are the MPs the PM thinks they can work with or has to work with...and that is rarely the most talented..it's like lots of professions in that sense......Corbyn is an exception to that because Labour's election system is different....though talent wise he's pretty weak....but being far left is what mattered. The real meritocracy comes in the form of the civil servant system supporting it. That talent pool is massively larger.....though admittedly most of them are from independent schools. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Jan 2018 2.01pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Jan 18 1.56pm

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

Surely it should be. It really isn't though, is it?

They pick from a limited talent pool of MPs.

Leaderships of parties are normally compromise candidates...The cabinets are the MPs the PM thinks they can work with or has to work with...and that is rarely the most talented..it's like lots of professions in that sense......Corbyn is an exception to that because Labour's election system is different....though talent wise he's pretty weak....but being far left is what mattered.

The real meritocracy comes in the form of the civil servant system supporting it. That talent pool is massively larger.....though admittedly most of them are from independent schools.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Jan 2018 2.01pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Sportyteacher London 10 Jan 18 9.51pm
I'd send Toby Young and The Daily Mail HQ (esp. smug ol' editor, Andrew Pierce) on a Virgin Train to be sidelined to a depot where both are locked up and can't be released until they have properly reflected upon and learnt from their failings....
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Sportyteacher

London 10 Jan 18 9.51pm

I'd send Toby Young and The Daily Mail HQ (esp. smug ol' editor, Andrew Pierce) on a Virgin Train to be sidelined to a depot where both are locked up and can't be released until they have properly reflected upon and learnt from their failings....

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