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July 16 2019 10.10pm

Gaza Massacre

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 16 May 18 9.45am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

Hamas the terrorist organisation have said they want to send people to fling molotov cocktails over the border and breach it. Hamas are using kids as human shields and know the media will be sympathetic. You expect Israel to sit back and not defend itself?

By mass murder?

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 16 May 18 9.47am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Arrest them.
That's laughable considering for years there have been secret tunnels.
The Arabs don't draw a map for these.
Disproportionate in who's eyes.
As with the recent chemical attack in Syria which has not been proven by the way.
The news you see will be mainly for the bleeding heart brigade.
Can you justify the reasons for all the stabbings of innocent Jews in the last few years where an Arab randomly attacks anyone in his or her cross hairs.
If Israel was so anti Arab why are there mixed populations in border towns.
I'm sure many want to co exist on both sides.
Sadly the minority influence the majority on both sides.
As in braveheart.
Mere sheep following the shepherds ( ironic)
And the German thing was just that
An analogy but so could have been fact.

Are you under the care of a physician?

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 16 May 18 10.04am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Are you under the care of a physician?

For my arthritis yes and thanks for your concern.
For having a different opinion to you no I'm not.
Can you recommend one that can convert me to be a left wing luvvy then.

 

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View Jamesey's Profile Jamesey Flag Wandsworth 16 May 18 10.16am Send a Private Message to Jamesey Add Jamesey as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

For my arthritis yes and thanks for your concern.
For having a different opinion to you no I'm not.
Can you recommend one that can convert me to be a left wing luvvy then.

Making reasonable and logical posts like Cryrst has done suggest that any help from a physician should be directed elsewhere.

 


Nothing is fool-proof - fools are too ingenious

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 16 May 18 10.20am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

You are trying to smear Israel by claiming that they have the support of "right wing evangelical americans". Not true!

The American people, US politicians (including Democrats) and the recent US presidents have supported Israel and recognised Jerusalem as its capital.

Israel is surrounded by countries who want to wipe it off the map and are attacked by terrorists every day. That is never reported. When they respond, they are the bad guys?

Why do the left always support terrorists over democratic states?

Palestinians lived on that land for millennia until they were violently dispossessed by people without any legal claim. Since then they have been degraded, humiliated, crushed and beaten in every way imaginable and with full international asent. I am no advocate for terrorism but I would be genuinely interested to know: if YOU were them, what would you do?

That moral fuzziness aside, terrorism is bad and I suspect Israel deals with it largely in the same way we dealt with the Irish issue and Spain dealt with ETA. I have no issue with Israel where they are acting within acceptable and proportionate parameters to protect their people. Firing live ammunition on unarmed civilians - whether organised by Hamas or not - is obviously not acceptable. I cannot believe you are defending it.

I am bored with the surrounded by enemies point. This suggests there is some unity in those enemies or prospect of real threat. What applied 40 years ago does not apply today. All of those "aggressors" are so busy with their own issues and the widening gap in the Islamic schism that I suspect they have largely forgotten this enemy. And besides, the US supported Israeli military would easily brush away any attack.

I agree I may have overstated the evangelical point. My take on US attitude to Israel is that 40% of the population are evangelicals and genuinely believe that the earth was created 4700 years ago on a Friday. They will support whatever Israel does and would not waste a thought if every Palestinian was driven into the sea. In this view they conveniently ignore the fact that 9% of Palestinians are Christian.

This group strike me as those who always vote and thus carry considerable weight in US policy. They are the main cause of this problem and you will note that every time the Republicans are in office, Israel's behaviour gets worse.

However, you then have a considerable Jewish lobby. Also, many Americans are Christian if not evangelical and probably lean towards Israel. Even for the atheists, I am guessing 9/11 made life very difficult for Palestinians.

Otherwise, you have a small liberal group who have to be very careful if they make any pro-Palestinian comment; and sympathetic young educated types who can't be @rsed to vote and thus don't count.

The truth is that in Israel you have a powerful regime; and a beaten and oppressed minority. In any other circumstance, the natural inclination towards sympathy for the underdog would cause that regime to temper its conduct. It seems that, with Americans, Israel is an exception to that.

BTW I am not left wing. However, if Israel does consider itself to be a true democratic state on a European model, then it better start behaving like one.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 16 May 18 10.23am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Jamesey

Making reasonable and logical posts like Cryrst has done suggest that any help from a physician should be directed elsewhere.

Hmm, I read his response twice and while I see his logic I am still struggling to see reasonable.

Firing live ammunition at unarmed civilians. What is your take on that?

 

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View Jamesey's Profile Jamesey Flag Wandsworth 16 May 18 10.26am Send a Private Message to Jamesey Add Jamesey as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Hmm, I read his response twice and while I see his logic I am still struggling to see reasonable.

Firing live ammunition at unarmed civilians. What is your take on that?

My response is what I said on page 3 of this thread. Can't be bothered to repeat it again.

 


Nothing is fool-proof - fools are too ingenious

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 16 May 18 10.30am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

By mass murder?

What do you think the armed Hamas terrorists were planning to do by breaching the Israeli fence then? Erm... murder Israelis.

What's the intention of burning tyres as a smokescreen, then firing the fire bombs and launching fire kites with swastikas into Israel? Erm... murder Israelis.

Israel warned in advance the "protesters" to stay away from the border or they will get shot.

Hamas knows by bussing in civilians to the border in order to get shot by the IDF will help their cause and their tactics have worked on you. There is no reason for children to be near that border fence.

 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 16 May 18 10.57am Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Palestinians lived on that land for millennia until they were violently dispossessed by people without any legal claim. Since then they have been degraded, humiliated, crushed and beaten in every way imaginable and with full international asent. I am no advocate for terrorism but I would be genuinely interested to know: if YOU were them, what would you do?

That moral fuzziness aside, terrorism is bad and I suspect Israel deals with it largely in the same way we dealt with the Irish issue and Spain dealt with ETA. I have no issue with Israel where they are acting within acceptable and proportionate parameters to protect their people. Firing live ammunition on unarmed civilians - whether organised by Hamas or not - is obviously not acceptable. I cannot believe you are defending it.

I am bored with the surrounded by enemies point. This suggests there is some unity in those enemies or prospect of real threat. What applied 40 years ago does not apply today. All of those "aggressors" are so busy with their own issues and the widening gap in the Islamic schism that I suspect they have largely forgotten this enemy. And besides, the US supported Israeli military would easily brush away any attack.

I agree I may have overstated the evangelical point. My take on US attitude to Israel is that 40% of the population are evangelicals and genuinely believe that the earth was created 4700 years ago on a Friday. They will support whatever Israel does and would not waste a thought if every Palestinian was driven into the sea. In this view they conveniently ignore the fact that 9% of Palestinians are Christian.

This group strike me as those who always vote and thus carry considerable weight in US policy. They are the main cause of this problem and you will note that every time the Republicans are in office, Israel's behaviour gets worse.

However, you then have a considerable Jewish lobby. Also, many Americans are Christian if not evangelical and probably lean towards Israel. Even for the atheists, I am guessing 9/11 made life very difficult for Palestinians.

Otherwise, you have a small liberal group who have to be very careful if they make any pro-Palestinian comment; and sympathetic young educated types who can't be @rsed to vote and thus don't count.

The truth is that in Israel you have a powerful regime; and a beaten and oppressed minority. In any other circumstance, the natural inclination towards sympathy for the underdog would cause that regime to temper its conduct. It seems that, with Americans, Israel is an exception to that.

BTW I am not left wing. However, if Israel does consider itself to be a true democratic state on a European model, then it better start behaving like one.

Not sure why you are bringing this "Jewish lobby" red herring into this?? And what has "9/11 made life very difficult for Palestinians" got to do with it? Israel don't need the US for support or military back-up. Plus Israel has plenty of Muslim countries in the region as friends also.

You ask what I would do? For starters, not vote a terrorist organisation (Hamas) to take charge of my state! Not take my family near the border where they could get injured or killed. Let me repeat, they were WARNED about live ammunition near the border.

So what is the "European model"? Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, the only country in the Middle East where Muslims can live in democracy and are represented in parliament, where gays and Christians can live in peace. You have Israeli police officers regularly attacked by terrorists and Christian holy sites vandalised. What about regular Israelis going about their daily lives? Aren't they important to you?

Edited by Penge Eagle (16 May 2018 11.09am)

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 16 May 18 11.43am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Hmm, I read his response twice and while I see his logic I am still struggling to see reasonable.

Firing live ammunition at unarmed civilians. What is your take on that?

Are logic and reason one and the same.
I have said not once that killing is good.
These civilians were not unarmed.
The ones you see in the pictures might be yes but read and see and think between the lines.
Do you reckon it would help their cause to show the guns and rockets ready to roll if the fence had gone down.
Don't touch fire and you won't get burned.
Sounds reasonable to me.
I think you are an apologist for these twisted leaders pretty much using their own people as collateral damage to further their existence.
Once the people wake up and smell the coffee it will end in Gaza.
If there was one place the Arab spring would probably have worked it was there.
Israel I'm sure would have offered assistance if the will was there to do it.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 16 May 18 12.14pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Palestinians lived on that land for millennia until they were violently dispossessed by people without any legal claim. Since then they have been degraded, humiliated, crushed and beaten in every way imaginable and with full international asent. I am no advocate for terrorism but I would be genuinely interested to know: if YOU were them, what would you do?

The Jews have been violently suppressed through most of their history. Been kicked out of countries. Middle eastern countries have prosecuted them and forced them out. The middle east contains the most anti semitic places in the world.

Like the Jews had to leave when the Romans kicked them out the Palestinians could leave for surrounding middle eastern countries. This is by no means justice but it is an option.

This is the option that the Jewish right in Israel have chosen and essentially 'might is right' and that's about it in the real world. If some Arab country or countries want to go to war over it then what will be will be.

Originally posted by silvertop

That moral fuzziness aside, terrorism is bad and I suspect Israel deals with it largely in the same way we dealt with the Irish issue and Spain dealt with ETA. I have no issue with Israel where they are acting within acceptable and proportionate parameters to protect their people. Firing live ammunition on unarmed civilians - whether organised by Hamas or not - is obviously not acceptable. I cannot believe you are defending it.


Hamas wish to break through the wall using whatever means possible to get at and kill Jews. On this point I have no issues with Israel using whatever means possible to stop that including killing anyone. It is not as though they have not made these warnings known.

As for morality.....are you kidding. We are talking about Hamas and IDF here. Both of these organisations will use whatever means necessary.

It's a war and morality is for armchair critics who don't have to get their hands dirty fighting it.


Originally posted by silvertop

I am bored with the surrounded by enemies point. This suggests there is some unity in those enemies or prospect of real threat. What applied 40 years ago does not apply today. All of those "aggressors" are so busy with their own issues and the widening gap in the Islamic schism that I suspect they have largely forgotten this enemy. And besides, the US supported Israeli military would easily brush away any attack.

This is nonsense. If this is true then why are Jews with Israeli passports still banned from many Middle Eastern countries? Of course they are their enemies.

Originally posted by silvertop

I agree I may have overstated the evangelical point. My take on US attitude to Israel is that 40% of the population are evangelicals and genuinely believe that the earth was created 4700 years ago on a Friday. They will support whatever Israel does and would not waste a thought if every Palestinian was driven into the sea. In this view they conveniently ignore the fact that 9% of Palestinians are Christian.

This group strike me as those who always vote and thus carry considerable weight in US policy. They are the main cause of this problem and you will note that every time the Republicans are in office, Israel's behaviour gets worse.

However, you then have a considerable Jewish lobby. Also, many Americans are Christian if not evangelical and probably lean towards Israel. Even for the atheists, I am guessing 9/11 made life very difficult for Palestinians.

Otherwise, you have a small liberal group who have to be very careful if they make any pro-Palestinian comment; and sympathetic young educated types who can't be @rsed to vote and thus don't count.

Half of British Muslims think that gay school teachers should be sacked.....lets not even think about apostates. (amusingly they vote left to a hyper high degree...because they know who their cultural relativists are)

The point is these attitudes aren't going to change anytime soon. So yes, certain demographics always reliably vote in set ways..... unless there is something you are proposing then the point is moot.

In my view the Jewish lobbies are far more important in controlling political opinion within the US anyway.


Originally posted by silvertop

The truth is that in Israel you have a powerful regime; and a beaten and oppressed minority. In any other circumstance, the natural inclination towards sympathy for the underdog would cause that regime to temper its conduct. It seems that, with Americans, Israel is an exception to that.

BTW I am not left wing. However, if Israel does consider itself to be a true democratic state on a European model, then it better start behaving like one.

Well, Hamas and their actions and charter make sympathy pretty difficult.

Israel doesn't require your support. It has America and that's all it needs.

As far as I'm concerned I'm not going to support anti western forces against a pro western force. So while plenty of the criticisms against Israel have some validity.....I'm not siding with anti western groups.

Edited by Stirlingsays (16 May 2018 6.18pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 16 May 18 12.20pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

By mass murder?

And your solution is?

 

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