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April 19 2024 10.07am

Bernard from Shakhtar

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View dp's Profile dp Flag Tunbridge Wells 04 Aug 18 10.27am Send a Private Message to dp Add dp as a friend

Originally posted by mattteo

That's not what every paper in Portugal or Italy has been writing in the last month. Look, this is from 4 days ago:

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"Bernard ha pedido a los rectores de San Siro un contrato de cuatro años y un sueldo de 3,5 millones de euros por campaña." means that Bernard has asked AC Milan a contract for 4 years and an annual salary of 3,5 millions each year. Divide 3.5 by 53 and you get a weekly salary of 66k. Euros that is.

This is from July 27th and it says "la richiesta del giocatorre per l'ingaggio e piutosto alta: 3.5 milioni di euro a stagione", meaning "the players' demands in order to sign are high: 3.5 millions euros per year":

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Yes, besides this he's also asking for a 7-9 million payment up frontbevause he's coming free of contract and the agents want 1 million for themselves as I understand. But even doing the math, with 14 millions in salaries over 4 years and 10 millions up front, that's a 24 million expenditure with everything for a player like Bernard. Divided by week it would be 113k pe week.

Either The Guardian knows something better and these publications don't know or they've pulled that 200k number out of their ass.

I am not getting into the facts and figures debate, but there are a few nuances that you might consider factoring into your assessments and comparisons to ensure ceteris paribus.

1. How is an upfront payment to a signing player amortised over the life of the contract in comparison with a payment to another club? It seems to me that a payment to a player is likely to be reflected differently to the payment to another club.

2. An upfront payment is likely to be upfront, whereas a payment to a club is often spread over a period of time.

3. A Contract is rarely allowed to run full term nowadays. Resale value is a consideration.

The upshot is that if you purchase a player for 10 million on a 5 year deal, it is different to paying an upfront fee of 10 million for a free agent.

I think these debates should really bear a proper consideration of the business aspects. As interesting as it may be, it is important that the comparisons between what we could do, and what we have done at least pays respect to our general lack of understanding of football as a business.

 

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View mattteo's Profile mattteo Flag 04 Aug 18 12.27pm Send a Private Message to mattteo Add mattteo as a friend

dp, I understand precisely what you mean. But as far as I'm concerned, 10 million is 10 million whether you pay it up front or you pay it in 3 payments in 5 years. Yes, it would be a question of having liquidities at a certain point, but in the end, it's the same thing.

If the total cost of landing Brrnard would be around 100k a week, that's less than the total cost of Kouyate (10 million+around 70k in weekly wages). Paying 7-10 million up front is not that big a front investment in a player like him.

 

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View dp's Profile dp Flag Tunbridge Wells 04 Aug 18 12.51pm Send a Private Message to dp Add dp as a friend

Originally posted by mattteo

dp, I understand precisely what you mean. But as far as I'm concerned, 10 million is 10 million whether you pay it up front or you pay it in 3 payments in 5 years. Yes, it would be a question of having liquidities at a certain point, but in the end, it's the same thing.

If the total cost of landing Brrnard would be around 100k a week, that's less than the total cost of Kouyate (10 million+around 70k in weekly wages). Paying 7-10 million up front is not that big a front investment in a player like him.

I think you are crystallising the difference between running a football club and being a supporter.

Those running the football club are having to make decisions about what to do, and not do, based on a complicated set of criteria depending on what they are faced with at the time. This includes cash and FFP considerations. In other words they need to consider what is possible all things considered.

As a supporter, we can create an entirely artificial set of criteria, based on the facts “as far as we are concerned”.

For example, Kouyate’s £10 million is amortised at £2.5 million a year. Bernard’s is £10 million up front - so the cost of Bernard this season would be £7.5 million more.


 

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View mattteo's Profile mattteo Flag 04 Aug 18 1.41pm Send a Private Message to mattteo Add mattteo as a friend

Originally posted by dp

I think you are crystallising the difference between running a football club and being a supporter.

Those running the football club are having to make decisions about what to do, and not do, based on a complicated set of criteria depending on what they are faced with at the time. This includes cash and FFP considerations. In other words they need to consider what is possible all things considered.

As a supporter, we can create an entirely artificial set of criteria, based on the facts “as far as we are concerned”.

For example, Kouyate’s £10 million is amortised at £2.5 million a year. Bernard’s is £10 million up front - so the cost of Bernard this season would be £7.5 million more.


Yes, but Bernard's cost would be 10 million this year and 0 in the second year, 0 in the third year and 0 in the 4th year.

Kouyate's cost will be 2.5 million this year, 2.5 million next year, 2.5 million in the 3rd year and 2.5 million in the 4th year.

So, you save money this transfer window, but you have more expensive the summer windows to come. That's why I say it's the same for me. I do the same in real life. If I want to buy something, I don't try to pay it in instalments, unless the sum is too big. Otherwise, I pay it up front, because it doesn't help if if I pay 100£ for a tv this month and 100£ in 6 months. I chose to pay 200£ right away so that I can have more money 6 months from now.

 

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Deleted11 04 Aug 18 2.21pm

Basically, when you pay in installments, you are reducing the stress on your cash in the bank. So, a £10m fee for a player in the accounts will be based on the contract length rather than what you paid, so if it's a 5 year contract then £2m will show in each years accounts, whether you paid it up front or not. I imagine an up front payment to a free agent would be treated the same too as you could argue it is basically a transfer fee.
That's why the first thing you should look at when a company releases their accounts is the cashflow statement to see how much money they've got.

 

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View mileend's Profile mileend Flag East London 04 Aug 18 7.31pm Send a Private Message to mileend Add mileend as a friend

there are thousands of ways you construct the deal - we don't know - you could spread the joining fee over several years

who is to say that if we are paying Max Meyer a total of £9m for joining us that it isn't in 3 payments of £3million at the end of each summer transfer window - possibly the later ones only to be paid as a loyalty bonus

we don't know so you can't rule out paying £10m joining fee for Bernard because of cash flow or accounting issues - if it was the right deal you would be inventive about how to make it work for both sides

 

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View dp's Profile dp Flag Tunbridge Wells 04 Aug 18 9.35pm Send a Private Message to dp Add dp as a friend

Originally posted by mileend

there are thousands of ways you construct the deal - we don't know - you could spread the joining fee over several years

who is to say that if we are paying Max Meyer a total of £9m for joining us that it isn't in 3 payments of £3million at the end of each summer transfer window - possibly the later ones only to be paid as a loyalty bonus

we don't know so you can't rule out paying £10m joining fee for Bernard because of cash flow or accounting issues - if it was the right deal you would be inventive about how to make it work for both sides

Yes. This is precisely the point. Unless you know the precise deal, you can’t know whether it is comparable or not. It can cut both ways, but without the full knowledge, everything else is just speculation.

 

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View dp's Profile dp Flag Tunbridge Wells 06 Aug 18 5.56pm Send a Private Message to dp Add dp as a friend

Originally posted by mattteo

Yes, but Bernard's cost would be 10 million this year and 0 in the second year, 0 in the third year and 0 in the 4th year.

Kouyate's cost will be 2.5 million this year, 2.5 million next year, 2.5 million in the 3rd year and 2.5 million in the 4th year.

So, you save money this transfer window, but you have more expensive the summer windows to come. That's why I say it's the same for me. I do the same in real life. If I want to buy something, I don't try to pay it in instalments, unless the sum is too big. Otherwise, I pay it up front, because it doesn't help if if I pay 100£ for a tv this month and 100£ in 6 months. I chose to pay 200£ right away so that I can have more money 6 months from now.

As if to prove the point, Wolves appear to be signing Adama Traore for £26 million instead of the £18 million release fee in his contract because they want to pay in instalments rather than up front. A bit of an extreme example, but it does show the value that clubs attach to being able to defer payments.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 06 Aug 18 6.33pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Clubs can use factoring agents (FA). E.g. price = £9M. FA facilitates club lump sum so can pay price in full. Club pays FA £10M over time.

 

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View dp's Profile dp Flag Tunbridge Wells 06 Aug 18 7.11pm Send a Private Message to dp Add dp as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

Clubs can use factoring agents (FA). E.g. price = £9M. FA facilitates club lump sum so can pay price in full. Club pays FA £10M over time.

That would make sense.

Strange how Wolves are willing to pay £8 million over the asking price in order to pay in instalments then - if that is true, of course.

 

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View Mwncisee's Profile Mwncisee Flag Middlesbrough 06 Aug 18 7.21pm Send a Private Message to Mwncisee Add Mwncisee as a friend

Originally posted by dp

That would make sense.

Strange how Wolves are willing to pay £8 million over the asking price in order to pay in instalments then - if that is true, of course.

It might actually be a case of Wolves couldn't afford his release fee in one payment which is set at 18 mill. So for them to get their man they have had to negotiate a fee with the club over installments. They and Bro may well actually value him at more than 18 mill but that was the fee agreed as a release fee when he signed his Boro contract.

 

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View dp's Profile dp Flag Tunbridge Wells 06 Aug 18 11.26pm Send a Private Message to dp Add dp as a friend

Yes, I see that, but wouldn't getting the release fee from a factoring agent, as Silvertop says, be better business than paying £8 million more than the release fee!!.

 

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