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December 12 2018 2.56am

Sadiq Khan

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 14 Nov 18 10.55am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Have you ever asked yourself why you feel it necessary to defend them?
Had it occurred to you that the criticism is directed toward what some Muslims have done and the unacceptable nature of some Islamic attitudes rather than Muslims in general.
Or would you rather be an apologist for these things and claim that people are 'Islamophobic' just to stifle debate?

Yesterday a person in my extended family was mugged by a Black person in Croydon. Do I blame all Black people?
No
Are street muggings in Croydon almost always committed by Black people? Yep.
I know you would rather ignore that fact and come up with some old crap about poverty or upbringing and say nothing about personal responsibility or predisposition.

I don't defend them

I merely question the objectivity of people that appear highly single-minded in their dislike of all things Muslim.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 14 Nov 18 10.58am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Sorry for the late reply I've been ill.

I didn't take it that personally I suppose I have a constant bee in my bonnet over the dynamics on the left's obsessive defence of Islam....Not forgetting that you have a perfect right to type that and this is just the cut and thrust of debate.

I think we are all sensitive nowadays because in my view identity politics is the inevitable consequences of demographic change and this is the path we are on. You feel you're defending a principle whereas I think that principle is in a sense from an era that's already past...I see the principle in it though.

Regardless when it comes to Khan this wasn't about Islam but you're right we criticise religion here. I'm amongst the harshest critic of Islam both its extreme but also to a lesser extent the expediency found in its mainstream.....But when it comes to secular Muslims my concern isn't really there. (though I know Khan makes advantage of of his demographic but he wouldn't be a politician if he didn't do that)

May your illness be short and non-extreme

I was reading about the Raj last night, mostly the Muslims were the good guys as far as I could make out. Their religion did not appear to be in contradiction to the British. It came more from the Hindu side to portray Muslims as a 'race' rather than just another bunch of Indians with a different religion.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 14 Nov 18 11.10am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

May your illness be short and non-extreme

I was reading about the Raj last night, mostly the Muslims were the good guys as far as I could make out. Their religion did not appear to be in contradiction to the British. It came more from the Hindu side to portray Muslims as a 'race' rather than just another bunch of Indians with a different religion.


You make an important point. There isn't a race of Muslims it's an religion that promotes certain ideas. Amongst the more pious or to be fair most literal of the religion those ideas bring it into conflict with western ones....in my view.

This isn't anywhere near as true with Hinduism or Sikhism. Both religions that have taken root here but like Judaism don't clash with western values..with exceptions (arranged marriage perhaps).

Personally I'm all about ensuring that England still has a high majority within it who consider themselves English in a hundred years. Otherwise I don't see it remaining England....and the English have a right to their own country. So like the Japanese and other countries I agree with limiting the population of groups that aren't English or from home countries.

That said, I think I'm on the losing side.

But this desire is a very motivating factor amongst many...for example pakistan wouldn't exist without this similar tribal motivation......As we know from other demographics, people vote or think one way in their own countries and vote and think another elsewhere.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2018 11.13am)

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 14 Nov 18 11.25am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


You make an important point. There isn't a race of Muslims it's an religion that promotes certain ideas. Amongst the more pious or to be fair most literal of the religion those ideas bring it into conflict with western ones....in my view.

This isn't anywhere near as true with Hinduism or Sikhism. Both religions that have taken root here but like Judaism don't clash with western values..with exceptions (arranged marriage perhaps).

Personally I'm all about ensuring that England still has a high majority within it who consider themselves English in a hundred years. Otherwise I don't see it remaining England....and the English have a right to their own country. So like the Japanese and other countries I agree with limiting the population of groups that aren't English or from home countries.

That said, I think I'm on the losing side.

But this desire is a very motivating factor amongst many...for example pakistan wouldn't exist without this similar tribal motivation......As we know from other demographics, people vote or think one way in their own countries and vote and think another elsewhere.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Nov 2018 11.13am)

As I read it, the Muslims didn't originally want pakistan to be a separate country. That was more driven by the Hindus who feared the political clout of the Muslims would have too much influence.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Nov 18 11.37am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

I don't defend them

I merely question the objectivity of people that appear highly single-minded in their dislike of all things Muslim.

So what do you mean by all things Muslim?

You criticise others for having a simple minded attitude to the subject and then make blanket statements.
The fact is that from a Western secular perspective, there is much to criticise about Islamic culture.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 14 Nov 18 11.46am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

As I read it, the Muslims didn't originally want pakistan to be a separate country. That was more driven by the Hindus who feared the political clout of the Muslims would have too much influence.

If we were going to look seriously at it I don't think something as massive as that separation can be attributed to just one factor but I think we can safety say a state for Muslims was not forced upon many Muslims.

However, it's also true to say that huge numbers of Muslims died for a political divide that wasn't of their choosing.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Nov 18 11.51am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

If we were going to look seriously at it I don't think something as massive as that separation can be attributed to just one factor but I think we can safety say a state for Muslims was not forced upon many Muslims.

However, it's also true to say that huge numbers of Muslims died for a political divide that wasn't of their choosing.

In any similar situation, you will always have those that are active and those that would prefer it all to just go away while they live their lives.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 14 Nov 18 12.09pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

In any similar situation, you will always have those that are active and those that would prefer it all to just go away while they live their lives.


Yep, for example it's a truth lost on many that most Germans weren't Nazis or particularly pro Nazi.....but when it comes to choosing sides in a conflict they aren't going to turn on their own.....Rommel is a good example of this.

But we all know that it's the small number of elites at the top who get to speak for everybody and that we are all tarred by that brush.

Many of those who marched about the Iraq war and so on know all about that.....though I supported it, though I doubt the certainty of my position now.

The common man is subject to the whims of their rulers.....and I'm not supporter of our current one nor of the opposition alternatives.

 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 18 Nov 18 2.41pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Sadiq Khan criticised over 60 per cent rise in staff costs at City Hall since taking office [Link]

 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.08pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

'Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson for 322k sold for just 11k after police banned from using them' [Link]

I had a look into this a bit more as I couldn't remember the details of the original story a few years ago.

Yes, government should spend every penny likes it's their own and 300k wasted is terrible. However, it is is pittance compared to Sadiq's plan to spend 6m on toilets for bus drivers.

Boris' intention was to save the tax payer money because the three second-hand cannon would have cost 2.4m new. The German Federal Police put a deadline on the purchase, hence the rush to buy them before approval.

And who was the home secretary that was seen as taking too much time to decide if they should be granted a licence on the mainland? Theresa May. It came at the very time she was looking to fight off Boris as a leadership rival for the Tory party. She later used it as political capital against Boris.

Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Nov 2018 1.09pm)

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.17pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

'Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson for 322k sold for just 11k after police banned from using them' [Link]

I had a look into this a bit more as I couldn't remember the details of the original story a few years ago.

Yes, government should spend every penny likes it's their own and 300k wasted is terrible. However, it is is pittance compared to Sadiq's plan to spend 6m on toilets for bus drivers.

Boris' intention was to save the tax payer money because the three second-hand cannon would have cost 2.4m new. The German Federal Police put a deadline on the purchase, hence the rush to buy them before approval.

And who was the home secretary that was seen as taking too much time to decide if they should be granted a licence on the mainland? Theresa May. It came at the very time she was looking to fight off Boris as a leadership rival for the Tory party. She later used it as political capital against Boris.

Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Nov 2018 1.09pm)

I would have loved to have used the water cannons I would have added some soap as some of the demonstrators clearly need a bath.

I'm afraid that Boris has the negotiating skills of Theresa May. The Germans put a deadline on the sale and he blinked. As we couldn't give them away I don't think there were other buyers queuing up he should have stood firm and got approval first to use them.

It was always a gamble because water cannon has never been used on the UK mainland and in London's narrow streets could cause a lot of damage. That said I think the idiots who closed 5 bridges should have had a dose or as Napoleon said "a whiff of grapeshot".

 


One more point

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 19 Nov 18 1.29pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

The sensible thing would have been Boris and May having a sensible discussion about it before writing the cheque. But that would be too easy, wouldn't it.

 

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