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Stirlingsays Online 26 Nov 18 6.37am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I think that despite his reputation, many neutral, objective historians would say that the ruthlessness of Cromwell's actions in Ireland has been overplayed, considering the circumstances. Obviously, there will always be resentment among some of the Irish. He killed an estimated 600,000 out of a population of around 1.400,000......Most of them civilians, lots of women and children. Cromwell was well known for hating catholics. Now I agree that we need to be careful in judging past history by today's standards.....for example, Alexander is lauded by many but he also was known for butchering every inhabitant of a town or city if its leaders had opposed him.....But that doesn't mean that I have to regard Cromwell in a favourable light.....just a nuanced one. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 6.39am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

26 Nov 18 6.37am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I think that despite his reputation, many neutral, objective historians would say that the ruthlessness of Cromwell's actions in Ireland has been overplayed, considering the circumstances.
Obviously, there will always be resentment among some of the Irish.

He killed an estimated 600,000 out of a population of around 1.400,000......Most of them civilians, lots of women and children.

Cromwell was well known for hating catholics.

Now I agree that we need to be careful in judging past history by today's standards.....for example, Alexander is lauded by many but he also was known for butchering every inhabitant of a town or city if its leaders had opposed him.....But that doesn't mean that I have to regard Cromwell in a favourable light.....just a nuanced one.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 6.39am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 26 Nov 18 7.52am
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio 'the Pale' was Dublin County. Cromwell's biggest genocide was Drogheda, which is 30 miles North of the Pale. so , yes. Correct. Having a statue of Cromwell at Westminster is about as offensive to irish people as the Statue of Bomber Harris is to any people from Dresden. Never understood why to some politicians he is a parliamentary hero. This was a guy who sent troops into the house and summarily dismissed the MPs. �you have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, i say, and let us have done with you. In the name of god, go!.� Hang on I am starting to warm to the guy maybe he had a point. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 26 Nov 18 7.52am

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

'the Pale' was Dublin County. Cromwell's biggest genocide was Drogheda, which is 30 miles North of the Pale.

so , yes. Correct.

Having a statue of Cromwell at Westminster is about as offensive to irish people as the Statue of Bomber Harris is to any people from Dresden.

Never understood why to some politicians he is a parliamentary hero. This was a guy who sent troops into the house and summarily dismissed the MPs.

�you have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, i say, and let us have done with you. In the name of god, go!.�

Hang on I am starting to warm to the guy maybe he had a point.

One more point

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Mapletree Croydon 26 Nov 18 11.33am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Apparently it's racist to want anglo saxons to remain in charge of its own islands. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2018 7.54am) Presumably you would recommend importing them back from Scotland then? Not sure I want Anglo Saxons running the whole of Britain, but if that's what you want.
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Mapletree

Croydon 26 Nov 18 11.33am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Apparently it's racist to want anglo saxons to remain in charge of its own islands.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Nov 2018 7.54am)

Presumably you would recommend importing them back from Scotland then?

Not sure I want Anglo Saxons running the whole of Britain, but if that's what you want.

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Stirlingsays Online 26 Nov 18 11.40am
Originally posted by Mapletree Presumably you would recommend importing them back from Scotland then? Not sure I want Anglo Saxons running the whole of Britain, but if that's what you want. Both the Angles and Saxons come from Germany......You don't seem to have much of an issue with Germany running Europe yet you object to Britain? Obviously I'm being tongue in cheek there.....however, around about 30 percent of English or WASP DNA is germanic....with the rest being what I've mentioned previously. However, this is England.....and if the English aren't running it....then it is no longer England....and by proxy Scots running Scotland and so on. I speculate that your concern over 'anglo saxons' is probably part of the over arching problem. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 12.50pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

26 Nov 18 11.40am

Originally posted by Mapletree

Presumably you would recommend importing them back from Scotland then?

Not sure I want Anglo Saxons running the whole of Britain, but if that's what you want.

Both the Angles and Saxons come from Germany......You don't seem to have much of an issue with Germany running Europe yet you object to Britain?

Obviously I'm being tongue in cheek there.....however, around about 30 percent of English or WASP DNA is germanic....with the rest being what I've mentioned previously.

However, this is England.....and if the English aren't running it....then it is no longer England....and by proxy Scots running Scotland and so on. I speculate that your concern over 'anglo saxons' is probably part of the over arching problem.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 12.50pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 26 Nov 18 12.39pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Both the Angles and Saxons come from Germany......You don't seem to have much of an issue with Germany running Europe yet you object to Britain? Obviously I being tongue in cheek there.....however, around about 30 percent of English or WASP DNA is germanic....with the rest being what I've mentioned previously. However, this is England.....and if the English aren't running it....then it is no longer England....and by proxy Scots running Scotland and so on. I speculate that your concern over 'anglo saxons' is probably part of the over arching problem. Which English? The Anglo Saxons displaced in a wholesale fashion by the Normans? I don't want any single ethnicity running the country, even if you could work out who is what. But if it were one ethnicity it would involve largely red headed people in my opinion. Depends how far back you choose to go. Wouldn't want those Jonny Come Lately Frenchies from post 1066.
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Mapletree

Croydon 26 Nov 18 12.39pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Both the Angles and Saxons come from Germany......You don't seem to have much of an issue with Germany running Europe yet you object to Britain?

Obviously I being tongue in cheek there.....however, around about 30 percent of English or WASP DNA is germanic....with the rest being what I've mentioned previously.

Which English?

The Anglo Saxons displaced in a wholesale fashion by the Normans?

I don't want any single ethnicity running the country, even if you could work out who is what.

But if it were one ethnicity it would involve largely red headed people in my opinion. Depends how far back you choose to go. Wouldn't want those Jonny Come Lately Frenchies from post 1066.

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Stirlingsays Online 26 Nov 18 12.48pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Which English? The Anglo Saxons displaced in a wholesale fashion by the Normans? I don't want any single ethnicity running the country, even if you could work out who is what. But if it were one ethnicity it would involve largely red headed people in my opinion. Depends how far back you choose to go. Wouldn't want those Jonny Come Lately Frenchies from post 1066. No, the genetics have been done and tested for WASPs in England.....Germanic DNA is far higher at 30 percent than French DNA is....in fact it's the highest....so the term 'anglo saxon' is reasonable enough. You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. The English are not a single genetic line. The English are those who subscribe to being English and have lived here for generations. I've made that plain. If you disagree with the notion that the English should be in control of England then we are at odds. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

26 Nov 18 12.48pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Which English?

The Anglo Saxons displaced in a wholesale fashion by the Normans?

I don't want any single ethnicity running the country, even if you could work out who is what.

But if it were one ethnicity it would involve largely red headed people in my opinion. Depends how far back you choose to go. Wouldn't want those Jonny Come Lately Frenchies from post 1066.

No, the genetics have been done and tested for WASPs in England.....Germanic DNA is far higher at 30 percent than French DNA is....in fact it's the highest....so the term 'anglo saxon' is reasonable enough.

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. The English are not a single genetic line. The English are those who subscribe to being English and have lived here for generations.

I've made that plain.

If you disagree with the notion that the English should be in control of England then we are at odds.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 26 Nov 18 6.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays He killed an estimated 600,000 out of a population of around 1.400,000......Most of them civilians, lots of women and children. Cromwell was well known for hating catholics. Now I agree that we need to be careful in judging past history by today's standards.....for example, Alexander is lauded by many but he also was known for butchering every inhabitant of a town or city if its leaders had opposed him.....But that doesn't mean that I have to regard Cromwell in a favourable light.....just a nuanced one. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 6.39am) For the actions of Cromwell in Ireland there is a book by Niall Ferguson and a TV series. Think it was called Cromwell: God's Executioner. Historian is Irish and he tries to put Cromwell's actions into context. Some revealing content - in particular on the Catholics who fought for Cromwell and on the massacres in Ireland. They were not as widespread as made out, as Hrolf suggests. Recent Historical research also demonstrates that Cromwell's 'To hell or to Connaught' resettlement never happened. I believe the deaths Stirling talks about are largely from famine due to the presence of the armies (of all sides) being in Ireland and taking all the food, rather than any widespread organised slaughter. However, attitudes are unlikely to be changed by any 'inconvenient' historical research. My favourite Cromwell moment is his trial and execution after being dug up from his grave. I hope you all have a favourite Cromwell moment too. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 26 Nov 18 6.37pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

He killed an estimated 600,000 out of a population of around 1.400,000......Most of them civilians, lots of women and children.

Cromwell was well known for hating catholics.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Nov 2018 6.39am)

For the actions of Cromwell in Ireland there is a book by Niall Ferguson and a TV series. Think it was called Cromwell: God's Executioner. Historian is Irish and he tries to put Cromwell's actions into context.
Some revealing content - in particular on the Catholics who fought for Cromwell and on the massacres in Ireland. They were not as widespread as made out, as Hrolf suggests.
Recent Historical research also demonstrates that Cromwell's 'To hell or to Connaught' resettlement never happened. I believe the deaths Stirling talks about are largely from famine due to the presence of the armies (of all sides) being in Ireland and taking all the food, rather than any widespread organised slaughter.
However, attitudes are unlikely to be changed by any 'inconvenient' historical research.
My favourite Cromwell moment is his trial and execution after being dug up from his grave. I hope you all have a favourite Cromwell moment too.

Red and Blue Army!

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PalazioVecchio south pole 26 Nov 18 8.53pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC My favourite Cromwell moment is his trial and execution after being dug up from his grave. I hope you all have a favourite Cromwell moment too. just like any real King, after he croaked Oliver Cromwell wanted his son to continue in the family business. Richard became the second Lord Protector. Richard Cromwell lasted 5 minutes in the job. Known as 'tumbledown dick or Queen dick' Edited by PalazioVecchio (26 Nov 2018 9.17pm) Eze Peasy at Anfield....
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PalazioVecchio

south pole 26 Nov 18 8.53pm

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Originally posted by ASCPFC

My favourite Cromwell moment is his trial and execution after being dug up from his grave. I hope you all have a favourite Cromwell moment too.

just like any real King, after he croaked Oliver Cromwell wanted his son to continue in the family business. Richard became the second Lord Protector.

Richard Cromwell lasted 5 minutes in the job. Known as 'tumbledown dick or Queen dick'

Edited by PalazioVecchio (26 Nov 2018 9.17pm)

Eze Peasy at Anfield....

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DanH SW2 26 Nov 18 9.42pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays No, the genetics have been done and tested for WASPs in England.....Germanic DNA is far higher at 30 percent than French DNA is....in fact it's the highest....so the term 'anglo saxon' is reasonable enough. You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. The English are not a single genetic line. The English are those who subscribe to being English and have lived here for generations. I've made that plain. If you disagree with the notion that the English should be in control of England then we are at odds. My grandparents are Irish. Does that mean I�m not English?
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DanH

SW2 26 Nov 18 9.42pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. The English are not a single genetic line. The English are those who subscribe to being English and have lived here for generations.

I've made that plain.

If you disagree with the notion that the English should be in control of England then we are at odds.

My grandparents are Irish. Does that mean I�m not English?

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 26 Nov 18 10.13pm
Originally posted by DanH My grandparents are Irish. Does that mean I�m not English? No. You're Welsh. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 26 Nov 18 10.13pm

Originally posted by DanH

My grandparents are Irish. Does that mean I�m not English?

No. You're Welsh.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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steve1984 26 Nov 18 11.01pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio Having a statue of Cromwell at Westminster is about as offensive to irish people as the Statue of Bomber Harris is to any people from Dresden. That might be a more worthwhile comparison if after bombing the place to bits we'd then annexed Saxony and moved in a load of Scottish people.
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steve1984 26 Nov 18 11.01pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Having a statue of Cromwell at Westminster is about as offensive to irish people as the Statue of Bomber Harris is to any people from Dresden.

That might be a more worthwhile comparison if after bombing the place to bits we'd then annexed Saxony and moved in a load of Scottish people.

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Mapletree Croydon 26 Nov 18 11.11pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays No, the genetics have been done and tested for WASPs in England.....Germanic DNA is far higher at 30 percent than French DNA is....in fact it's the highest....so the term 'anglo saxon' is reasonable enough. You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. The English are not a single genetic line. The English are those who subscribe to being English and have lived here for generations. I've made that plain. If you disagree with the notion that the English should be in control of England then we are at odds. You did remember to add in the Viking DNA for the Normans I suppose. The English are not Anglo Saxon so why do you say that term is reasonable enough. Some of the most English people I know have recent progenitors from overseas. No, I don�t subscribe to your lived here for generations point. In fact it makes me deeply uncomfortable.
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Mapletree

Croydon 26 Nov 18 11.11pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. The English are not a single genetic line. The English are those who subscribe to being English and have lived here for generations.

I've made that plain.

If you disagree with the notion that the English should be in control of England then we are at odds.

You did remember to add in the Viking DNA for the Normans I suppose.

The English are not Anglo Saxon so why do you say that term is reasonable enough.

Some of the most English people I know have recent progenitors from overseas. No, I don�t subscribe to your lived here for generations point. In fact it makes me deeply uncomfortable.

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