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July 18 2019 6.52pm

Oxbridge here we come!

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View Ginger Pubic Wig's Profile Ginger Pubic Wig Flag Wickham de L'Ouest 18 Jan 19 6.15pm Send a Private Message to Ginger Pubic Wig Add Ginger Pubic Wig as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Affirmative action is real racism.

Anything that accepts a lower standard to address some kind of social justice is the beginning of the end of true meritocracy.

This cancer infects the STEM field now. Far left politics is dominant in both the IT tech field and in the world of physics.

It isn't about being the best.....It's about being the best from what is politically correct.

The East Asians are laughing at us.....and in respect of affirmative action they are also suing....and I back them.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jan 2019 8.24am)

It's so much more grey than this.

If we accept that institutional racism and sexism exist and have been embedded into society over decades -- and maybe you simply do not believe that, but I do -- then an injustice has been done to large groups of people.

I am not in favour of absurd rules that favour idiots over smart people, but can I stomach a little 'let's favour this woman', 'let's favour this black bloke' if all else is equal.

I see this in my own workplace where women -- who do tend to earn less than men -- are getting bigger bumps and PERHAPS get more appreciation of their performance. I even think I've suffered from it in terms of career progression.

I don't love it, but I kind of think fair enough.

Just to repeat, though, that over promotion of idiots isn't my thing. And if these school kids are way below the standard...that's unacceptable.

 

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Online Flag hove actually 18 Jan 19 6.23pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Well good luck to them but I would have liked the report to clarify how they were offered places.

Back in the 1970's I applied to Cambridge University, as well as having to get good grades at A level I had to sit an entrance exam. My school had never done this and I failed it because they didn't prepare me and I wasn't bright enough. However schools that took that route spent a year preparing for the entrance exam whilst I had a couple of weeks.

Anyway no excuses I wasn't good enough my point is if they passed entrance exams then it doesn't matter what colour they were or what their background they got their by merit and well done them.

There were other routes into Cambridge which were not as equitable "my father knows your father" etc. I have no idea if that still goes on today.

Anyway if they got their by merit I wish them luck and just wished the journalist had spelled that out.

Edited by Badger11 (18 Jan 2019 8.10am)

Edited by Badger11 (18 Jan 2019 8.12am)

In my day everyone who wanted to go sat, Oxford or Cambridge, but not both.

 

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View .TUX.'s Profile .TUX. Online Flag 18 Jan 19 7.19pm Send a Private Message to .TUX. Add .TUX. as a friend

Originally posted by steve1984

Oxbridge here we come! School sees 41 pupils offered top university places.

Good to see that London isn't all knife crime and gang violence.

As I understand it one of the kids is even white!

Doubtless there'll be the usual bitterness, including reference to the wickedness of positive discrimination.

Good luck to these kids, they're tomorrow's elite. Can't do worse than the Old Etonians that people here seem so keen on.

[Link]

.........educated by the feckwits of today.
This'll end well

 


Buy Litecoin.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 18 Jan 19 7.45pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

It's so much more grey than this.

If we accept that institutional racism and sexism exist and have been embedded into society over decades -- and maybe you simply do not believe that, but I do -- then an injustice has been done to large groups of people.

I am not in favour of absurd rules that favour idiots over smart people, but can I stomach a little 'let's favour this woman', 'let's favour this black bloke' if all else is equal.

I see this in my own workplace where women -- who do tend to earn less than men -- are getting bigger bumps and PERHAPS get more appreciation of their performance. I even think I've suffered from it in terms of career progression.

I don't love it, but I kind of think fair enough.

Just to repeat, though, that over promotion of idiots isn't my thing. And if these school kids are way below the standard...that's unacceptable.


You are right that I don't agree with you on the language of 'institutional racism'. Indeed I regard it as a wholly ridiculous description of human nature that has already done much harm.

You say that you aren't in favour of 'stupid people' being promoted over 'smart people'.....which would be in agreement with the basic tenet of meritocracy.....but then you contradict this by saying.....but oh....maybe just a little.

While I understand that we don't agree over what 'racism' is and how it's framed I would ask you to reconsider this last point.

I suggest that once you abandon the principle of meritocracy that the stable door cannot be left....'just ajar' as you imply.

I suggest that in reality we have created a two tier system based upon race....that by its very definition is racist......but just racist against those who are perhaps considered 'privileged'.

The only system that truly holds no truck with race is one based upon pure merit and ability......where the cream rises to the top....and no, that's not a sly race based metaphor but a truism for all.

Do people suggest that sprint athletes at the Olympics with west African genetic heritage carry weights on them to give white and other race athletes a better chance?......No we don't....but I consider this as no different to what is done with affirmative action.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jan 2019 7.56pm)

 

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 18 Jan 19 7.55pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Lets hypothesise that you are wealthy and want the best for your kids.

do you :

a) send them to Dulwich College ?

or

b) send them to that free school just a few hundred yards away, toward Tulse Hill ?

what will get them to study at a good Uni ?

 


34,300 reasons to love Selhurst in 2021

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 18 Jan 19 8.07pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

Lets hypothesise that you are wealthy and want the best for your kids.

do you :

a) send them to Dulwich College ?

or

b) send them to that free school just a few hundred yards away, toward Tulse Hill ?

what will get them to study at a good Uni ?

What’s your point?

 


COYP

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View Ginger Pubic Wig's Profile Ginger Pubic Wig Flag Wickham de L'Ouest 18 Jan 19 8.52pm Send a Private Message to Ginger Pubic Wig Add Ginger Pubic Wig as a friend

Sterling...

You may dislike the term institutional racism and fair enough, it was lazy. but do black people do less well in job applications, and do women get less money than men for the same job?

I simply believe they do. You may not. But I hire people and have first hand experience of how these things go in practice.

As for 'a little bit' (and it's to redress racism and sexism, and even social background)...let me take it to an extreme...

Eton boy, daddy had to earn half a mill to educate him, and he gets 0.000001% better academic/appplication results than the son of a convict & dirt poor single mum who, despite all the odds has kept his nose clean and excelled in the shytest education environment in the country, with violence all around him.

I can't help but want the poor kid to get the nod and think that's right. He has the merit in this meritocracy. Not the rich kid who had every possible help.


 

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View Penge Eagle's Profile Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 18 Jan 19 8.58pm Send a Private Message to Penge Eagle Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Penge Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Sterling...

You may dislike the term institutional racism and fair enough, it was lazy. but do black people do less well in job applications, and do women get less money than men for the same job?

I simply believe they do. You may not. But I hire people and have first hand experience of how these things go in practice.

As for 'a little bit' (and it's to redress racism and sexism, and even social background)...let me take it to an extreme...

Eton boy, daddy had to earn half a mill to educate him, and he gets 0.000001% better academic/appplication results than the son of a convict & dirt poor single mum who, despite all the odds has kept his nose clean and excelled in the shytest education environment in the country, with violence all around him.

I can't help but want the poor kid to get the nod and think that's right. He has the merit in this meritocracy. Not the rich kid who had every possible help.

That may be the case but it's not down to racism and sexism as the likes of professor Jordan Peterson has proved time and time again.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 18 Jan 19 9.22pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

Sterling...

You may dislike the term institutional racism and fair enough, it was lazy. but do black people do less well in job applications, and do women get less money than men for the same job?

I simply believe they do. You may not. But I hire people and have first hand experience of how these things go in practice.

As for 'a little bit' (and it's to redress racism and sexism, and even social background)...let me take it to an extreme...

Eton boy, daddy had to earn half a mill to educate him, and he gets 0.000001% better academic/appplication results than the son of a convict & dirt poor single mum who, despite all the odds has kept his nose clean and excelled in the shytest education environment in the country, with violence all around him.

I can't help but want the poor kid to get the nod and think that's right. He has the merit in this meritocracy. Not the rich kid who had every possible help.

You either support meritocracy or you don't.

You either place someone's ability ahead of the colour of someone's skin or you don't.

Essentially you have made statements here that show that you support affirmative action.

I criticise it for the reasons I've stated and support those who sue for how it has disadvantaged them over their race.

Now in my view you make valid points about class advantage and we would probably agree about some aspects of that.

However, affirmative action is most definitely not the answer to that sore.

For me meritocracy and innate IQ must override all......So I'm suspicious of private schools which are based upon subject knowledge and reward networking and wish for a system that was based more purely on innate IQ.....though attitude to hard work is also important so this is a difficult topic.....Essentially I'd be looking to avoid advantage by class....but not excluding someone because of it.

Now, I'd agree that this still leaves a problem over how society treats the less genetically gifted....which would still hit the poorest more due to the higher number of less successful genes....and there are valid concerns there....but they are different questions.


Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jan 2019 9.42pm)

 

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View Ginger Pubic Wig's Profile Ginger Pubic Wig Flag Wickham de L'Ouest 18 Jan 19 9.30pm Send a Private Message to Ginger Pubic Wig Add Ginger Pubic Wig as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You either support meritocracy or you don't.

You either place someone's ability ahead of the colour of someone's skin or you don't.

Essentially you have made statements here that show that you support affirmative action.

I criticise it for the reasons I've stated and support those who sue for how it has disadvantaged them over their race.

Now in my view you make valid points about class advantage and we would probably agree about some aspects of that.

However, affirmative action is most definitely not the answer to that sore.

For me meritocracy and innate IQ must override all......So I'd abolish private schools which were based upon subject knowledge and base them purely on innate IQ.....Essentially looking to avoid advantage by class.

Now, I'd agree that this still leaves a problem over how society treats the less genetically gifted....which would still hit the poorest more due to the higher number of less successful genes....and there are valid concerns there....but they are different questions.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jan 2019 9.25pm)

in my specific example, rich boy gets the nod despite clear evidence that poor boy is probably smarter given where they came from?

I'm only saying it's complicated. you're being pretty binary on something I don't believe is binary. affirmative action is as unhelpful a catch-all as institutional racism. it's a complex topic deserving of careful thought.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag Wisbech, England 18 Jan 19 9.38pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ginger Pubic Wig

in my specific example, rich boy gets the nod despite clear evidence that poor boy is probably smarter given where they came from?

I'm only saying it's complicated. you're being pretty binary on something I don't believe is binary. affirmative action is as unhelpful a catch-all as institutional racism. it's a complex topic deserving of careful thought.

I'd agree with you that some aspects are complex topics......though it can be seen here where we disagree on fundamental issues.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jan 2019 10.05pm)

 

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View Ginger Pubic Wig's Profile Ginger Pubic Wig Flag Wickham de L'Ouest 19 Jan 19 11.45am Send a Private Message to Ginger Pubic Wig Add Ginger Pubic Wig as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I'd agree with you that some aspects are complex topics......though it can be seen here where we disagree on fundamental issues.


Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Jan 2019 10.05pm)

we both believe in meritocracy. I have strong conviction that a person who is heavily disadvantaged but 99.999999% matches the achievements of a highly privileged individual...the disadvantaged person should get the nod in an application for Oxbridge. And that is far more meritocratic than giving the Eton graduate the reward.

once you accept that premise...and you may not, that's your prerogative, the question becomes how flexible the system needs to be to accommodate the disadvantaged.

I think 1 or 2 percent is fair. but it's a fiendishly difficult thing to measure.

I went to a god awful school and everything I've achieved in life is in spite of it. same with all my school friends. it wasn't our fault we went there, or had our upbringings.

I'm sure many people will know the feeling...

 

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