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The Duckenfield/Mackrell Verdicts

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View Phil’s Barber's Profile Phil’s Barber Flag Crowborough 17 Apr 19 1.25am Send a Private Message to Phil’s Barber Add Phil’s Barber as a friend

Anyone with half a brain knows the cause of this tragedy.

 

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View Superhorns3's Profile Superhorns3 Flag Harpdenden 17 Apr 19 10.35am Send a Private Message to Superhorns3 Add Superhorns3 as a friend

Originally posted by Phil’s Barber

***Just check out the ejections from the new Wembley for games involving either Everton or Liverpool and compare these with ANY other Wembley fixture!***


You maybe be right but Everton have only played at the new Wembley twice I think and Liverpool not for some time..

Millwall have played there a few times - they must rank higher!


Edited by Superhorns3 (17 Apr 2019 10.36am)

Edited by Superhorns3 (17 Apr 2019 10.37am)

 

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View Phil’s Barber's Profile Phil’s Barber Flag Crowborough 17 Apr 19 3.10pm Send a Private Message to Phil’s Barber Add Phil’s Barber as a friend

Originally posted by Superhorns3

You maybe be right but Everton have only played at the new Wembley twice I think and Liverpool not for some time..

Millwall have played there a few times - they must rank higher!

According to the web, Liverpool have played 5 competitive games at Wembley stadium since it re-opened in 2007 and you say Everton have played there twice, so there’s 7 games already and these are the ones I refer to and was involved with.

Whilst Millwall (and most other teams for that matter) have had supporters ejected from Wembley these are generally for offences involving drunkenness, disorder or offensive language and not unauthorised entry. What stands out with the two big Merseyside clubs are the number of people ejected for unauthorised entry, ie without tickets or using forgeries. The figures are astronomical when compared to ALL other clubs who have played there. This is not a one off either, as I say it is each and every time they have played there and the pattern is so evident because there are so many other games and clubs to compare them against.

There seems to be a blatant disregard for compliance with ground entry conditions and it is just ‘get in to see the game at all costs no matter how it is done or what the consequences are’.

Because of the layout and large open spaces outside the numerous entrances at the new Wembley Stadium, it is more forgeries and tactics of getting those already inside to open emergency exits or jumping the turnstiles etc. than concerted pressure on a particular ‘Away’ section ingress or egress but these are the tactics I have witnessed Liverpool supporters use a number of times, particularly at Chelsea and on occasion at Fulham and Arsenal (Emirates). One would expect Liverpool would be the last set of supporters to do or try this following Hillsborough but sadly, far from it, in my experience they are the worst.

 

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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 17 Apr 19 10.54pm

Originally posted by Phil’s Barber

Anyone with half a brain knows the cause of this tragedy.

Well said.

[Link]

Here's the footage of the CCTV. Note by kick off the pens are full and there's still thousands and thousands of fans outside as far as the eye can see trying to get in by hook or by crook. Forget all the paper talk and what the jury came back with, just look at it!! The gates open and they charge in en masse.

The crush was inevitable, either at the turnstile or in the pens once the floodgates opened. Rather than try and cover their arses and disgracefully to blame those poor souls who died old bill should've just told it like it was.

They were overrun by wave after wave of ticketless fans.

The Warrington verdict was a bow to pressure, it wasn't justice. The fa, Sheffield Wednesday, the police and yes, the fans all share blame for what happened.

 

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View kenbarr's Profile kenbarr Flag Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 18 Apr 19 3.45am Send a Private Message to kenbarr Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add kenbarr as a friend

Originally posted by ChrisGC

Well said.

[Link]

Here's the footage of the CCTV. Note by kick off the pens are full and there's still thousands and thousands of fans outside as far as the eye can see trying to get in by hook or by crook. Forget all the paper talk and what the jury came back with, just look at it!! The gates open and they charge in en masse.

The crush was inevitable, either at the turnstile or in the pens once the floodgates opened. Rather than try and cover their arses and disgracefully to blame those poor souls who died old bill should've just told it like it was.

They were overrun by wave after wave of ticketless fans.

The Warrington verdict was a bow to pressure, it wasn't justice. The fa, Sheffield Wednesday, the police and yes, the fans all share blame for what happened.

The Warrington verdict has taken into account what you refuse to, that there too few entry points to Leppings Lane. They even had turnstiles available that they didn’t use in order to “maintain segregation.” That decision was made by senior police officials above Duckenfield, SWFC & the FA. Why do you refuse to face facts? Why do you totally refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming failures of those whose duty it was to ensure the safety of those who attended? If there were “hordes of drunken, ticketless supporters,” which the CCTV cameras conclusively showed was not the case, where were the contingency plans to deal with them? Why did Duckenfield order Exit Gate C opened & then tell the FA’s Graham Kelly that it was forced open? That was a material lie that he admits he told. It is in the Warrington transcript which you so cavalierly dismiss.

You have dismissed me as someone who thinks I know more than I really do. Here is what I do know. I was a Selhurst Park Steward from February 1990 until the end of the 1991-92 season when I returned to New York after my father’s death. I was the Senior Steward of the “Executive” Car Park, which meant I had responsibilities both before & after all matches played at Selhurst plus reserve & floodlit youth matches played at Plough Lane. During Selhurst matches I filled in where needed during play. I had the honor to work for some of the finest people in the business; Senior Steward Ted Gammons & Assistant Chief Ron Greatorex as well as the outstanding PCs of the South Norwood station of the Metropolitan Police, led by Chief Superintendent George Crawford & a founder of the National Football Intelligence Task Force SGT John Baldock. They were the best of the best. I cannot imagine any of them leaving main access points unmanned as they were at Hillsborough. I can’t imagine any of them ordering the closure of turnstiles. I certainly can’t see Chief Super Crawford freezing to the point of totally ignoring what he could plainly see as Duckenfield did. He had a clear view of the shelf terrace from the Control Box. What was the man thinking? According to all objective evidence, including his own, he wasn’t thinking at all. Neither were the responsible officials of the FA or SWFC. It isn’t all Duckenfield’s fault but as all objective evidence shows a strong case for negligence exists. The level of that negligence is a matter for a jury.

I have read all the material pertaining to Hillsborough from Lord Justice Taylor’s report all the way through to Warrington. Have you? I sincerely doubt it.

Edited by kenbarr (18 Apr 2019 3.54am)

 

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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 18 Apr 19 8.34am

Originally posted by kenbarr

The Warrington verdict has taken into account what you refuse to, that there too few entry points to Leppings Lane. They even had turnstiles available that they didn’t use in order to “maintain segregation.” That decision was made by senior police officials above Duckenfield, SWFC & the FA. Why do you refuse to face facts? Why do you totally refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming failures of those whose duty it was to ensure the safety of those who attended? If there were “hordes of drunken, ticketless supporters,” which the CCTV cameras conclusively showed was not the case, where were the contingency plans to deal with them? Why did Duckenfield order Exit Gate C opened & then tell the FA’s Graham Kelly that it was forced open? That was a material lie that he admits he told. It is in the Warrington transcript which you so cavalierly dismiss.

You have dismissed me as someone who thinks I know more than I really do. Here is what I do know. I was a Selhurst Park Steward from February 1990 until the end of the 1991-92 season when I returned to New York after my father’s death. I was the Senior Steward of the “Executive” Car Park, which meant I had responsibilities both before & after all matches played at Selhurst plus reserve & floodlit youth matches played at Plough Lane. During Selhurst matches I filled in where needed during play. I had the honor to work for some of the finest people in the business; Senior Steward Ted Gammons & Assistant Chief Ron Greatorex as well as the outstanding PCs of the South Norwood station of the Metropolitan Police, led by Chief Superintendent George Crawford & a founder of the National Football Intelligence Task Force SGT John Baldock. They were the best of the best. I cannot imagine any of them leaving main access points unmanned as they were at Hillsborough. I can’t imagine any of them ordering the closure of turnstiles. I certainly can’t see Chief Super Crawford freezing to the point of totally ignoring what he could plainly see as Duckenfield did. He had a clear view of the shelf terrace from the Control Box. What was the man thinking? According to all objective evidence, including his own, he wasn’t thinking at all. Neither were the responsible officials of the FA or SWFC. It isn’t all Duckenfield’s fault but as all objective evidence shows a strong case for negligence exists. The level of that negligence is a matter for a jury.

I have read all the material pertaining to Hillsborough from Lord Justice Taylor’s report all the way through to Warrington. Have you? I sincerely doubt it.

Edited by kenbarr (18 Apr 2019 3.54am)

Well done you, would you like a medal?

I'm not disputing that there was fault by the police, the ground staff or the fa, so what's your point? That because you were a door man at a completely different ground hundreds of miles away, in a different decade under a different authority for a couple of years that your opinion is more valid than mine? That sounds like the definition of someone who thinks they know more than they actually do.

Being a part-time steward never qualified anyone as an expert on anything. Watch the footage man and see with your own eyes thousands of clearly ticketless fans charging the entrances just minutes before kickoff. Fans famed for this behaviour to this day.

They're as responsible for the tragedy as the other root causes. At the end of the day, ground inadequacy, fa incompetence and police inexperience wouldn't have conspired to kill 96 fans on their own! A wave of bodies charging en masse into a full pen was required.

 

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View DutchEagleJohan's Profile DutchEagleJohan Flag Vlissingen, Netherlands 30 Apr 19 11.42pm Send a Private Message to DutchEagleJohan Add DutchEagleJohan as a friend

You may want to have a look here, no need to read anything just look at the pic:

[Link]


Originally posted by ChrisGC

Well done you, would you like a medal?

I'm not disputing that there was fault by the police, the ground staff or the fa, so what's your point? That because you were a door man at a completely different ground hundreds of miles away, in a different decade under a different authority for a couple of years that your opinion is more valid than mine? That sounds like the definition of someone who thinks they know more than they actually do.

Being a part-time steward never qualified anyone as an expert on anything. Watch the footage man and see with your own eyes thousands of clearly ticketless fans charging the entrances just minutes before kickoff. Fans famed for this behaviour to this day.

They're as responsible for the tragedy as the other root causes. At the end of the day, ground inadequacy, fa incompetence and police inexperience wouldn't have conspired to kill 96 fans on their own! A wave of bodies charging en masse into a full pen was required.


 

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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 01 May 19 8.01am

Originally posted by DutchEagleJohan

You may want to have a look here, no need to read anything just look at the pic:

[Link]


Thanks for this, the photo proves my point. Pens 1 and 2 are clearly rammed despite the caption and 5 and 6 are well over 60% full. In fact, if you spread out the death pens into the visible gaps, the whole terrace is still over capacity.

Compare this lack of space to the many thousands on the CCTV footage scrumming to get in (after 3pm) and it is clear that there must be ticketless fans.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 01 May 19 8.13am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by ChrisGC


Thanks for this, the photo proves my point. Pens 1 and 2 are clearly rammed despite the caption and 5 and 6 are well over 60% full. In fact, if you spread out the death pens into the visible gaps, the whole terrace is still over capacity.

Compare this lack of space to the many thousands on the CCTV footage scrumming to get in (after 3pm) and it is clear that there must be ticketless fans.

Whether they had tickets or not there was a crowd surge which the police failed to control.

For the younger fans a last minute rush at any ground was quite common back in the day. Millwall friends were at Hilborough a few weeks before and have told me a similar rush happened that day so they were not surprised when tragedy struck.

This is the real lesson from Hilborough that this type of situation was a common occurrence at football grounds so it was forseeable and the authorities did nothing to prevent it.

 


One more point

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 01 May 19 9.12am Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Phil’s Barber

According to the web, Liverpool have played 5 competitive games at Wembley stadium since it re-opened in 2007 and you say Everton have played there twice, so there’s 7 games already and these are the ones I refer to and was involved with.

Whilst Millwall (and most other teams for that matter) have had supporters ejected from Wembley these are generally for offences involving drunkenness, disorder or offensive language and not unauthorised entry. What stands out with the two big Merseyside clubs are the number of people ejected for unauthorised entry, ie without tickets or using forgeries. The figures are astronomical when compared to ALL other clubs who have played there. This is not a one off either, as I say it is each and every time they have played there and the pattern is so evident because there are so many other games and clubs to compare them against.

There seems to be a blatant disregard for compliance with ground entry conditions and it is just ‘get in to see the game at all costs no matter how it is done or what the consequences are’.

Because of the layout and large open spaces outside the numerous entrances at the new Wembley Stadium, it is more forgeries and tactics of getting those already inside to open emergency exits or jumping the turnstiles etc. than concerted pressure on a particular ‘Away’ section ingress or egress but these are the tactics I have witnessed Liverpool supporters use a number of times, particularly at Chelsea and on occasion at Fulham and Arsenal (Emirates). One would expect Liverpool would be the last set of supporters to do or try this following Hillsborough but sadly, far from it, in my experience they are the worst.

Loads of them were climbing over walls where the properties are behind the WH end at Selhurst before the 3-3 Crystanbul night.

Remember the photo of the scouser who somehow got up to a window at the old Wembley about 30 foot from the ground?

Getting away with never paying was even used on Brookside once. The Everton supporting character was caught laying under the old seats on a crowded train by a ticket inspector. Villa Park in 1990. Ticketless fans walked round the pitch on 40 minutes. Fans asking for burgers, then a coke. Man turns round to get the coke and the scouser has gone and it’s too busy to do anything, even though there’s plod right there. The young seller probably doesn’t want the grief from scouser’s mates.

Fans of other clubs were doing this so it wasn’t just scousers, but there were more of them doing it, and apparently still are. Whether it was due to the successes of LFC and Everton or scousers being scousers or the unemployment levels, who knows, but it was happening.

My opinion is everyone shares some blame in thisbut not the people inside well before it happened.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (01 May 2019 9.24am)

 


COYP

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 01 May 19 9.38am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Loads of them were climbing over walls where the properties are behind the WH end at Selhurst before the 3-3 Crystanbul night.

Remember the photo of the scouser who somehow got up to a window at the old Wembley about 30 foot from the ground?

Getting away with never paying was even used on Brookside once. The Everton supporting character was caught laying under the old seats on a crowded train by a ticket inspector. Villa Park in 1990. Ticketless fans walked round the pitch on 40 minutes. Fans asking for burgers, then a coke. Man turns round to get the coke and the scouser has gone and it’s too busy to do anything, even though there’s plod right there. The young seller probably doesn’t want the grief from scouser’s mates.

Fans of other clubs were doing this so it wasn’t just scousers, but there were more of them doing it, and apparently still are. Whether it was due to the successes of LFC and Everton or scousers being scousers or the unemployment levels, who knows, but it was happening.

My opinion is everyone shares some blame in thisbut not the people inside well before it happened.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (01 May 2019 9.24am)

Agreed

 


One more point

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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 05 May 19 11.55am

Originally posted by Badger11

Agreed

Agreed.

 

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