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Billy Vunipola and Isreal Folau

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 17 Apr 19 11.28pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

Yes, as they say 'the more things change the more they stay the same'. The configuration shifts from time to time but the game remains the same.

Ain't that the truth.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 18 Apr 19 10.30am Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

Child marriage appears to align in a rather unfortunate manner with some religions. If a player was in the team posting pictures of young girls on Instagram and saying 'If only I could marry this one' and more concerning comments, would you support that too? It's the same principle. Religious texts, including Christianity, contain all kind of beliefs that are either considered extreme or shocking in the modern world. Are you saying that anything written within these books is perfectly legitimate just because it's based on religious belief?

Child marriage is against the law in general. However, even on our own doorstep we have special marriage licenses given out to Travellers and Gypsies who are underage - as they are a recognised ethnicity. You probably were not aware of this.
Also posting pictures of underage girls online would be peodophilia - especially with sexual commentary.
Stating that homosexuals go to hell is hardly the same. For a start it's a possibly fictional afterlife. And it is his genuine belief. If someone wants to believe in these things I say let them. I don't believe in these things at all personally - just to state my position.
I don't think Folau is openly going to attack homosexuals - he believes it is wrong and has stated that.
As another poster said - I believe this is a save face knee jerk reaction from rugby. But there are wider consequences. On another thread about Wayne I provided a tongue in cheek list about what we can joke about.
Perhaps now we need a list about what we can have an opinion on. I don't like religion - any of them. I particularly dislike some of the teachings of Islam and Christianity. Am I allowed to talk about that? To be honest, I would be fired if I gave my true opinion on Social Media. My main job is as a Public Servant. That is the real debate.

 


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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 18 Apr 19 11.32am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Free speech trumps everything in my view.

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 18 Apr 19 11.48am Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by chris123

Free speech trumps everything in my view.

Free speech is part of the US Constitution. Even then, for example, people were not free to espouse communist views, for example.
In Britain there has always been limits on free speech - unless you want to stand on a soap-box at speaker's corner. Even that is probably curtailed these days - in case you offend someone or group of people.
So, frankly, there is no free speech but enough people seem to have been fooled into the idea that there is.
Folau is paying the price for his 'free' speech and freedom of expression. At least, there have been no criminal charges against him yet.

 


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deleted user Flag 18 Apr 19 12.07pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Child marriage is against the law in general. However, even on our own doorstep we have special marriage licenses given out to Travellers and Gypsies who are underage - as they are a recognised ethnicity. You probably were not aware of this.
Also posting pictures of underage girls online would be peodophilia - especially with sexual commentary.
Stating that homosexuals go to hell is hardly the same. For a start it's a possibly fictional afterlife. And it is his genuine belief. If someone wants to believe in these things I say let them. I don't believe in these things at all personally - just to state my position.
I don't think Folau is openly going to attack homosexuals - he believes it is wrong and has stated that.
As another poster said - I believe this is a save face knee jerk reaction from rugby. But there are wider consequences. On another thread about Wayne I provided a tongue in cheek list about what we can joke about.
Perhaps now we need a list about what we can have an opinion on. I don't like religion - any of them. I particularly dislike some of the teachings of Islam and Christianity. Am I allowed to talk about that? To be honest, I would be fired if I gave my true opinion on Social Media. My main job is as a Public Servant. That is the real debate.

You ought try to your stick to your own argument

"- surely it is wrongful dismissal to be sacked for expressing religious beliefs? " you said.

I'm choosing examples of 'beliefs' that society rightly takes issue with. By your own logic you would have to support a player stating these creepy beliefs too if they were based on his genuine religious beliefs. My view instead is that to some extent it clearly depends on what the belief is, and if indeed it does depend on what the view is, then it's a matter of interpretation or nuance.

Believe what you like, but if you say "- surely it is wrongful dismissal to be sacked for expressing religious beliefs? " make up your mind about whether you actually believe it before you type it.

Edited by dollardays (18 Apr 2019 12.11pm)

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 18 Apr 19 12.20pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

You ought try to your stick to your own argument

"- surely it is wrongful dismissal to be sacked for expressing religious beliefs? " you said.

I'm choosing examples of 'beliefs' that society rightly takes issue with. By your own logic you would have to support a player stating these creepy beliefs too if they were based on his genuine religious beliefs. My view instead is that to some extent it clearly depends on what the belief is, and if indeed it does depend on what the view is, then it's a matter of interpretation or nuance.

Believe what you like, but if you say "- surely it is wrongful dismissal to be sacked for expressing religious beliefs? " make up your mind about whether you actually believe it before you type it.

Edited by dollardays (18 Apr 2019 12.11pm)

There is actually no contradiction in my argument. I don't support or believe in what Folau said.
However, he seems to have been sacked for expressing his religious beliefs. I believe this is wrongful dismissal due to employment law. Having quite a bit of experience with it here and in Britain - I believe a legal case could be taken that demonstrates he has been dismissed wrongfully on the grounds of his religion.
I am stating a legal case - not one where it has anything to do with me agreeing with him or not.
There is no contradiction in that.
What I don't like are the thought police watching everything that's said and getting rid of people when they don't like what's said.

 


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deleted user Flag 18 Apr 19 12.40pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

There is actually no contradiction in my argument. I don't support or believe in what Folau said.
However, he seems to have been sacked for expressing his religious beliefs. I believe this is wrongful dismissal due to employment law. Having quite a bit of experience with it here and in Britain - I believe a legal case could be taken that demonstrates he has been dismissed wrongfully on the grounds of his religion.
I am stating a legal case - not one where it has anything to do with me agreeing with him or not.
There is no contradiction in that.
What I don't like are the thought police watching everything that's said and getting rid of people when they don't like what's said.

I've not said that you agree with anything he says. I'm saying that you either believe that it's wrong to dismiss someone for expressing all and any religious beliefs, as you professed, or you don't. No matter how far those views differ from those held by the modern world or what religion they are.

As stated, by your own logic, you'd be there defending a rugby player repeatedly publicly declaring a love of very young girls "because it's his genuinely held religous belief" and "okay with his god". I seriously doubt you'd be doing that. I would find those views repellent and they lead to real world harm to others. I also to an extent believe that about Folaus views. It's not 'just a view' just because you personally don't care about what he's saying. There are real life consequences through hate spread through religion and this is an example of it.

And what if a player is essentially telling another team member that they're going to hell? Great for the team dynamic. Or there are two muslim players and one leaves the religion, I think we all know what the islamic view of Apostasy is. It becomes absurd to give an endless stamp of approval within a team dynamic of any and all bizarre religious prattlings when they impact the team, take the focus away from it, and continue despite being previously warned. I don't much care if they are "genuinely held beliefs". It's fantasy and beyond a point if people believe things that are either dangerous, damaging, counter to the society they're within, or against commercial interests that will get factored in as it was here.

Edited by dollardays (18 Apr 2019 1.31pm)

 

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View stuckinbristol's Profile stuckinbristol Flag In the woodwork. 18 Apr 19 12.40pm Send a Private Message to stuckinbristol Add stuckinbristol as a friend

As a side note, my son was at school with the Vinipola boys.
He said he went round there house one morning,and the brothers where having breakfast out of what could only be described as washing up bowls.
Well known family in my area, and very well thought of.

 

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deleted user Flag 18 Apr 19 12.44pm

Originally posted by stuckinbristol

As a side note, my son was at school with the Vinipola boys.
He said he went round there house one morning,and the brothers where having breakfast out of what could only be described as washing up bowls.
Well known family in my area, and very well thought of.

Start as you mean to go on, haha

 

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View Maine Eagle's Profile Maine Eagle Flag USA 18 Apr 19 1.33pm Send a Private Message to Maine Eagle Add Maine Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by chris123

Free speech trumps everything in my view.

There is no such thing, nor should there be.

Unless you want paedo instruction manuals on your newsagents walls detailing how to groom and abduct small children.

There is a line.

 


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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 18 Apr 19 2.02pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by dollardays

I've not said that you agree with anything he says. I'm saying that you either believe that it's wrong to dismiss someone for expressing all and any religious beliefs, as you professed, or you don't. No matter how far those views differ from those held by the modern world or what religion they are.

As stated, by your own logic, you'd be there defending a rugby player repeatedly publicly declaring a love of very young girls "because it's his genuinely held religous belief" and "okay with his god". I seriously doubt you'd be doing that. I would find those views repellent and they lead to real world harm to others. I also to an extent believe that about Folaus views. It's not 'just a view' just because you personally don't care about what he's saying. There are real life consequences through hate spread through religion and this is an example of it.

And what if a player is essentially telling another team member that they're going to hell? Great for the team dynamic. Or there are two muslim players and one leaves the religion, I think we all know what the islamic view of Apostasy is. It becomes absurd to give an endless stamp of approval within a team dynamic of any and all bizarre religious prattlings when they impact the team, take the focus away from it, and continue despite being previously warned. I don't much care if they are "genuinely held beliefs". It's fantasy and beyond a point if people believe things that are either dangerous, damaging, counter to the society they're within, or against commercial interests that will get factored in as it was here.

Edited by dollardays (18 Apr 2019 1.31pm)

Fair enough. Believe me I can see your point. I don't really see the connection with protecting Peados though. Peadophiles is rightly a crime in our society.
Is stating that homosexuality is not supported by God - according to his teachings - the same? I don't think you genuinely believe that.
Where exactly is the line drawn. I could extrapolate your argument further and say all hard line Christians and then all Muslims are basically wrong - and should be sacked for the beliefs they have. Whilst I don't agree with religion, is that my or society's place to say?
I agree largely with what you say about team and management and obviously you should respect certain codes of conduct when representing one's country. But there is a whole can of worms here.
This is quite a difficult argument for all sides of the political spectrum. What can we say and what can't we say?
Folau could have pleaded complete ignorance like Wayne and said he knew nothing of the treatment of homosexuals. However, it is quite interesting that he appears hell-bent (!) on sticking to his religious beliefs.
My best advice to sporting teams is to ban players from social media in their contract. Then have club/national employees posting uncontentious player's tweets/ posts. Essentially gagging their right to freedom of expression.

Edited by ASCPFC (18 Apr 2019 2.03pm)

 


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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 18 Apr 19 2.08pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by chris123

Free speech trumps everything in my view.

This is a great line for demonstrating the power of punctuation.
We could have a great laugh with:

Free speech: Trump's everything in my view.

Sorry Chris - not meaning to say that is your view. Just thought this funny.

 


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