Who is to blame?
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 Midlands Eagle  18 Dec 19 10.30am |
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Originally posted by Matov
as a newspaper columinst put it at the weekend, the war is over. Lets try and make a go of the peace now. That is unlikely to happen as there are too many people like Wisbech Eagle who would rather moan on about the injustice of life in this democracy rather than accept the will of the people and move on
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| Matov 18 Dec 19 10.40am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
That is unlikely to happen as there are too many people like Wisbech Eagle who would rather moan on about the injustice of life in this democracy rather than accept the will of the people and move on To be fair, we all like a good old moan. Rather partial myself to a good bleat and will even indulge in a rant or two. And would like to think I would be willing to risk it all to protect that right to be an annoying pain in the arse who refuses to go along with what the crowd is thinking. Only issue I ever had was this desire to effectively render worthless the winning 17 plus million votes. That raised my heckles in a way that very little else ever managed but it appears now that the people proposing this are now backing down in droves. Brexit is happening. And we need to accept that we do have to move on as a nation, no matter how cross we all felt. History will not reflect well on anybody who tried to push this ludicrous second referendum nonsense but I can also see that for many of us then our own reactions might cause us to perhaps question some of our judgements. But I do think this country was bought to the edges of major civil strife and that we all need to take a step back now and try and find a way forward. I still shudder at the thought of what a second referendum could have done to us all but that has passed now. Needs to become nothing more than a bad memorey that one day, and it will take a while, we can all make light of.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 18 Dec 19 10.45am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
No-one "won"! Everyone loses after what happened. We lost control to people unknown behind the Tory party. We will lose our membership of the most important organisation in Europe and become an isolated outsider. We have lost any kind of effective opposition to the most right wing version of the Tory party in my lifetime. Collectively we have lost our senses. The reasons are understandable, but they aren't acceptable because they are simplistic responses to highly complex issues. Issues that need to be handled by experts and not amateurs wound up by the right wing media. Lend me your time machine. Control is under the government of the day. That was and is the point. To represent the view of the majority vote. Depends what you value being an outsider of. A federal European state? Yes please and thank you. We’ll trade, but not give away our sovereignty and everything else to become lap dogs to Brussels. The left, left of centre or centre will have their day. As has been discussed on here, it’s inevitable with the changing demographic, as planned by New Labour. We need a functional and coherent opposition now, but they’ve p1ssed it up, nobody else. The sheer arrogance of Blair and the current no marks are why it’s happened. Using their voters as numbers and by ignoring them they’ve put all of them and you back in a box, because you’re part of the problem. Senses? Labour are in denial, masses of people ignored. You may think you know better. Know better than people living and experiencing the issues facing them since 2004 and bubbling ever since, all from your idyllic setting in Truro, in between dog walks and bowls. I think you need a dose or years of reality as these people see. The issues are not handled by experts. They’re left alone. Laissez faire. And incidentally, labour want lots more immigration, now. See the result a bit clearer yet? And then we have the Lib Dem’s who wanted to cancel Brexit. Their 4% increase of naff all isn’t a lot. The EU isn’t going to allow itself to be reformed unless a long drawn out actual exit tempts others to follow us. Edited by Rudi Hedman (18 Dec 2019 10.49am)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Dec 19 10.47am |
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Originally posted by Willo
When I perused the thoughts of Chairman 'Wisbech' responding to my comments I concluded that they were roughly spherical and males have two of them. I think the country needs to find a way to grow some so as to be ready to stand up to the way we are likely to be governed in the coming years. Maybe I will still be surprised and find that the start is just a clever ruse to throw the right off balance. Time will tell. Flimsy defence, worse than ours the other night (!) - I certainly wouldn't employ the gentleman as my defence lawyer.His arguments are as weak as a vicarage gin. I wouldn't accept the brief. I would though enjoy representing the "opposition" and being tested against your arguments in a court of public opinion more truly representative than the jury pool to be found in this place. Frankly spoken I think I could destroy you. Evidently one of my posts was a parody and when challenged about the claim that he was accused of "Vaunting superiority" and I stating that I accused him of a TONE of vaunting superiority his response was that he knew that anyway so NOT admitting at all that he was wrong in hurling an incorrect accusation at me.Evidentally the charge of "Vaunting superiority" was used in general terms and not specifically related to me but I have not witnessed anyone else using such terminology. Here is a chap who has asserted that nobody here accepts they are wrong!!!!. I think you need to step back and actually read the exchange. You are getting over exited about nothing. No apologies are necessary because no criticism of you personally was made. It was this type of epithet that was. He asserts that he is on HOL to learn - being an august luminary he must have gleaned the knowledge that there appears to be a groundswell of opinion that his contributions are emotive Anti-Tory, anti-Leave rhetoric and 24-carat tosh delivered in a patronising tone and one of vaunting superiority. Oh I am anti THIS version of the Tory party and certainly anti Leave and make no apologies whatsoever for that. It is also true that many people don't like my style and frequently criticise it. It has though been the case, since time began, that people try to shoot the messenger, for whatever reasons, and try to ignore the message. That's all that's happening here. If you don't like my style so what? Don't hide behind that excuse not to deal with the issues. Hurling outraged abuse around might amuse those of a like mind, but it is more at home in the nursery than in a debate between adults. If we were opposing advocates in the court of public opinion the Judge would not tolerate such behaviour. It seems apparent that the gentleman devours the spotlight, despite claims to the contrary, so one again I will assert that far from replying to any of his hogwash I will totally IGNORE it, denying it the oxygen of publicity.The sermons and lectures will go unanswered as quite frankly they will not be worthy of any response. Always been open to everyone here to do that. It's fine with me. I do it to some. Finally, the Honourable Member for 'More United' mentioned about posts becoming "Personal",perhaps he might reflect whether he has played a part in this. No, you are far from alone. HERE. Out in the wider world there is a much smaller number of people who are quite so locked into supporting the Tories whatever guise they adopt. Then there are those here who think that many traditional Tories are "lefties" and deserved being thrown out of the party. The HOL is a very strange and unrepresentative place. I hope he has a good Christmas,enjoys the festivities and has a happy and healthy New Year. Thanks for the good wishes which I reciprocate. Edited by Willo (18 Dec 2019 9.34am) Edited by Wisbech Eagle (18 Dec 2019 10.59am)
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Spiderman Horsham 18 Dec 19 11.02am |
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Originally posted by Willo
When I perused the thoughts of Chairman 'Wisbech' responding to my comments I concluded that they were roughly spherical and males have two of them. Flimsy defence, worse than ours the other night (!) - I certainly wouldn't employ the gentleman as my defence lawyer.His arguments are as weak as a vicarage gin. Evidently one of my posts was a parody and when challenged about the claim that he was accused of "Vaunting superiority" and I stating that I accused him of a TONE of vaunting superiority his response was that he knew that anyway so NOT admitting at all that he was wrong in hurling an incorrect accusation at me.Evidentally the charge of "Vaunting superiority" was used in general terms and not specifically related to me but I have not witnessed anyone else using such terminology. Here is a chap who has asserted that nobody here accepts they are wrong!!!!. He asserts that he is on HOL to learn - being an august luminary he must have gleaned the knowledge that there appears to be a groundswell of opinion that his contributions are emotive Anti-Tory, anti-Leave rhetoric and 24-carat tosh delivered in a patronising tone and one of vaunting superiority. It seems apparent that the gentleman devours the spotlight, despite claims to the contrary, so one again I will assert that far from replying to any of his hogwash I will totally IGNORE it, denying it the oxygen of publicity.The sermons and lectures will go unanswered as quite frankly they will not be worthy of any response. Finally, the Honourable Member for 'More United' mentioned about posts becoming "Personal",perhaps he might reflect whether he has played a part in this. I hope he has a good Christmas,enjoys the festivities and has a happy and healthy New Year.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 18 Dec 19 11.08am |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Willo please do me a favour and return to defending referees so I can start disagreeing with you again. I admit to having a hearty chortle apropos your comments about referees ! I think we have all had enough of those dastardly Willo threads ! Thank you very much for your kind wishes. Just to add that I noticed 'Wisbech' replying to one of my posts.Just ignored it, haven't bothered to read any of the piffle and this will continue. Edited by Willo (18 Dec 2019 11.10am)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Dec 19 11.22am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
That is unlikely to happen as there are too many people like Wisbech Eagle who would rather moan on about the injustice of life in this democracy rather than accept the will of the people and move on When we have PR then that remark will have some validity. Right now we have the will of a minority who have given it to a party who regard their MPs as just lobby fodder. Who is actually deciding the policy direction from here on is unknown but it isn't the people and their representatives!
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| Hrolf The Ganger 18 Dec 19 11.38am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
When we have PR then that remark will have some validity. Right now we have the will of a minority who have given it to a party who regard their MPs as just lobby fodder. Who is actually deciding the policy direction from here on is unknown but it isn't the people and their representatives! A spurious argument. What we have is a government who can govern selected by the largest number of people. Face it Wisbech. You just can't handle losing. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (18 Dec 2019 11.45am)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Dec 19 11.42am |
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Originally posted by Matov
I won't repeat all the reasons why that just isn't true but you can sure of one thing. There has been a bucket load of water under the bridge but there is a reservoir upstream which is waiting to come down and plenty of rain forecast. This is just a set back. A skirmish in a long war. Wounds will be repaired and breath drawn but the fight for the future of our country must go on. But I would suggest that many people who thought a second referendum a good idea might benefit from perhaps having a copy of 'Democracy for Idiots' awaiting them under their Winterfest trees on the 25th of this month. Democracy in the UK is delegated to our representatives. Referendums don't work for complex issues. Look at the the problems this last one has caused. And perhaps a basic course in mathematics, especially when it comes to percentages? Irrelevant diversion. We can all do the maths. It's whose calculations should be considered which is disputed. However I would also like to wish you a very festive couple of weeks now and with hopes that come 2020 we can all try to move on from a period in British history which has perhaps bought out the worst in many of us. Till my dying day I will never regret voting Leave and will ALWAYS struggle to comprehend how anybody ever thought that trying to have the votes of 17 plus million people usurped was going to end well but as a newspaper columinst put it at the weekend, the war is over. Try harder with your efforts at comprehension. People don't feel as I do for no reason. Complex issues should not be decided by referendums in a representative democracy. If our Parliament mistakenly held one they should have had the balls to admit that and accept the consequences, then hold the GE. Not one of the parties had those balls. They let us down. Lets try and make a go of the peace now. Please do. Others will be busy planning the next strategy.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Dec 19 11.53am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Didn’t I read that you don’t think the MPs should be able to do or think a,b or c now there’s a big majority a it’s your job to make sure they don’t. The attitude of both major parties has been to tighten their hold over their MPs and threaten them with expulsion if they vote against the whip. This will only get worse now. The result will be that it isn't our representatives setting the agenda and deciding what's best for us. It's the paymasters of the Tories. You know full well that MPs have been under the wing of the party, followed party policy and followed that through with the constituents understanding they’ll do that, for years and years. You’ll also know nearly all vote for the party leader. You are the only person on here who thinks otherwise, and as I’ve said, it’s very very boring. Some degree of party control is needed for smooth government but the overall direction ought to be in the hands of our elected representatives and not elsewhere. Unless they are free to vote according to the consciences that's impossible. And anyway, chris123 pointed out the final sentence under the role of an MP to prove you’re factually wrong anyway as well. I fail to see how, why or where that is.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Dec 19 12.13pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Lend me your time machine. Control is under the government of the day. That was and is the point. To represent the view of the majority vote. It is. The MPs though ought to be controlling the government of the day and not the other way around. It is this that I am pointing out because unless the MPs are in control they cannot represent anyone. They are just voting machines. Depends what you value being an outsider of. A federal European state? Yes please and thank you. We’ll trade, but not give away our sovereignty and everything else to become lap dogs to Brussels. That old chestnut! It is, and always was, a myth. Just scaremongering nonsense fed to you by those with a vested interest in breaking up the EU. Brussels doesn't have any lap dogs. They are our servants and not our masters. The left, left of centre or centre will have their day. As has been discussed on here, it’s inevitable with the changing demographic, as planned by New Labour. We need a functional and coherent opposition now, but they’ve p1ssed it up, nobody else. I agree with this. Whether Labour can recover depends on them. I favour the emergence of a totally new party.
Blair gets much more right than he does wrong. If he still led Labour we would not be in this mess.
Labour are a total shambles and probably finished. I have no time at all for Corbyn, his type or his supporters. Any thoughts you have to the contrary need to be eradicated from your mind. The issues are not handled by experts. They’re left alone. Laissez faire. And incidentally, labour want lots more immigration, now. See the result a bit clearer yet? And then we have the Lib Dem’s who wanted to cancel Brexit. Their 4% increase of naff all isn’t a lot. The EU isn’t going to allow itself to be reformed unless a long drawn out actual exit tempts others to follow us. Unrestricted laissez faire in today's interdependent and complex world won't deliver what we need. The problems are far too big for that. Immigration will continue much as before. Mark my words there will be continuing moans about it for ever. I wanted to cancel Brexit! The LibDems got squeezed but that doesn't mean their arguments weren't popular. The EU may be forced to reform if populism grows and too many voters continue to get their misinformation from web forums. Edited by Rudi Hedman (18 Dec 2019 10.49am)
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cryrst  The garden of England 18 Dec 19 1.08pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That I notice them doesn't mean I read every word. Often I will skim something, get the drift and decide it's pointless trying to respond. Thus I ignore it. No-one on the hard right really accepts that's where their views are. It takes others to see that. This is my take. Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine and John Major are on the right. "Tommy Robinson" is on the furthest fringe of the far right. Decide for yourself who you are closest to in outlook. So if your not with us, your against us is what you are admitting then.
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