Who is to blame?
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 PalazioVecchio  south pole 14 Dec 19 10.22am |
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Originally posted by chris123
Consigned to the BBS then. will they be having an online day of Mourning now that the Tories are back ? why not merge the BBS with the BBC and send them all to live in Afghanistan ?
Eze Peasy at Anfield.... |
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Matov  14 Dec 19 10.30am |
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Originally posted by PalazioVecchio
will they be having an online day of Mourning now that the Tories are back ?
Oddly enough for me I have some sympathy with the Corbys. In 2017 on the back of a manifesto promise to honour the 2016 result, Labour did pretty well all things considered. In 2019, now effectively backing a f***ing long, drawn out farce to ensure that we remained, they get spanked. For my money Corbyn was a c*** in 2017 and remains so in 2019 so that can be negated as the primary factor. But their policy on Brexit has almost changed 180'. Don't get me wrong, I have buckets of corn ready for poppin and my most comfortable deckchair, stolen from a beach in Brighton all set up as I relish these t***s having months, possibly years, long scrap but I have a horrible suspicion that Labour will not survive this now. That there simply is not anybody who can unite them behind one leader and one message. The fault lines might be fatal. All that fun short-lived.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 14 Dec 19 10.39am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective. If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself. For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage. If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one. The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives. This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn. I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure. You lost & the reason? The Drivel above.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 14 Dec 19 11.09am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
Wisbech - it's people like you who are to blame as people like me were sick and tired of being talked down to by people like you and a landslide victory for the Tories was just what was needed to finally shut up people like you and point out to the world that your views were irrelevant. The voters in the constituencies of Gauke, Grieve and Soubry also agreed and booted out your heroes Since when has expressing opinions been "talking down" except in the minds of those who lack confidence in their own? The plain fact is that despite this landslide of a result being squarely the responsibility of a poorly led Labour Party more people voted for parties in favour of a final vote on Brexit than those who oppose one. That fact has not yet risen to the surface in the aftermath of the result but I predict that it will and as a consequence there will be a renewed push to see PR installed in the UK. That push won't just come from people like me but from those on the right who also feel under represented. The one thing you can be quite sure about is that those who oppose Brexit will not be "shut up" by this. They will reflect, regroup and continue the fight. The first task being to ensure we don't do any more damage than is absolutely necessary if and when we do leave. If some predictions are true Brexit might not finally "be done" until after the NEXT election and who knows what the political landscape might be by then. That you believe that my views, and by the way those of 53% of those who voted, are irrelevant, really is "talking down". Never during the aftermath of the 2016 referendum did anyone suggest that a 52% vote was irrelevant! All that was ever suggested was that as the basis of the question was inconclusive further work was needed. Yes, some fine MPs have lost their seats because of their determination to put their principles above blind personal ambition. In other words they did what every MP is supposed to do and used their conscience on our behalf. We have lost their wisdom, at least temporarily, simply because of the first past the post system. A system which can see a total blockhead returned in some constituencies provided they wear the correct label. We don't want sheep in our Parliament. We want thinkers and leaders.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Matov 14 Dec 19 11.18am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That fact has not yet risen to the surface in the aftermath of the result but I predict that it will and as a consequence there will be a renewed push to see PR installed in the UK. That push won't just come from people like me but from those on the right who also feel under represented.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 14 Dec 19 11.21am |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Poor old Wisbech. The Tories will be in power for a decade at least. As I have told you countless times I am, and have always been, traditionally a Tory voter. I am just not a right wing Tory. I side with the Ken Clark, Michael Heseltine view of Tory politics and take exactly the same approach as they both do over Brexit. The current Labour party are the primary cause of this debacle. Without their weakness Brexit would not have happened. Let's see which type of Tories are in power for the coming decade. If the ERG are consigned to being a noisy but ineffective nuisance again and true "One Nation" Conservatism triumphs, then I won't be unhappy at all. With a soft Brexit, a very close alignment with the EU and a big distance from Trump then all should be OK.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Spiderman Horsham 14 Dec 19 11.27am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
For what I expect you to ask and that, of course, depends on your perspective. If you voted Tory then right now maybe you feel only celebrations are in order, but I am not so sure. Since the size of the majority was known just about everyone has suggested this means that Johnson's new government can sideline the ERG, ignore Farage and pursue a much softer Brexit deal. Something they must do if they stand any chance of reaching a deal in 12 months. Along with the fact that many of their new MPs come from constituencies with very different priorities to their southern heartlands this could well mean a move to the centre is about to happen, something seemingly confirmed today by Johnson himself. For a hardline Brexiteer this has to be a disaster. Who is to blame? Farage is! If he hadn't tried (and succeeded) to spike the LibDems in the south by standing down all those candidates, the Tory majority would have been much smaller, and he might even have had a handful of his own MPs. With a smaller majority Johnson would need the ERG onside and his room for maneuver would be much less. If we now get a soft Brexit then you can blame Farage. If you are a remainer then the blame falls on several heads. Cameron for his miscalculation but mostly on Corbyn for choosing to stay as Labour leader when it was obvious that he is so unpopular that failure was inevitable. The opportunity existed a few months ago to remove Johnson, install a temporary PM and a cross party government of national unity with the sole purpose of holding a confirmatory vote on whether the country wanted the "deal" or now wanted to remain. It only required Corbyn to agree and then stand aside. His stubbornness is to blame for the fact that although even with this landslide result more people voted for a party that wanted such a vote than did not, we still don't get one. The other thing to blame is our out of date voting system which is no longer fit for purpose. Many, if not most, people seem to have voted against something rather than for it. This isn't healthy in a democracy. We need people to vote for what they want and for that to be proportionately represented in the Parliament so that compromises can be reached by our representatives. This is a watershed moment in the UK's political life. A united Ireland now looks a racing certainty to me in the next 10 years. Scotland looks less certain but will be a continuing thorn. I am not though without hope. The coming days and weeks will tell a lot. If Johnson reshuffles and sends the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel to the back benches then he will have made a good start. I hope Labour totally collapses and that a new centre left party emerges, funded by both more moderate unions, and socially responsible wealthy citizens and businesses. Whether the current LibDems provide the foundations for such a development is an open question, given the failed attempt by the 2 Davids almost 40 years ago but we need such a party now as never before. There are many wonderful politicians who would immediately fit into such a party. All they need is the structure. No chance she is establishing a good reputation as Home Secretary (from those that work for her not the media)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 14 Dec 19 11.31am |
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Originally posted by becky
1. The majority of your fellow citizens obviously did want to exit - that's why Johnson won - and that was after seeing the implications for the last 3 and odd years! Untrue. Only 47% of those who voted did so for parties that wanted to exit without first holding a second referendum on the terms. 53% voted for those who did. Only our first past the post system got the result. 2. That makes the assumption that there will still be an EU to rejoin by the time the mood in this country changes - I doubt that there will be, or at least, not in it's current form. A reformed EU is needed. Those countries who wish for closer political alignment must be allowed to have it, whilst those who don't must be allowed to retain their independence. A two speed Europe was under discussion 30 years ago. I presented a paper on it to a London society back then. It's not new but it is inevitable. We ought to remain as the leader of the second group.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Spiderman Horsham 14 Dec 19 11.32am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
PR doesn't allow minority parties to hold power at all. It just allows those who support them to be fairly represented The Greens with 3% of the vote wouldn't dictate anything under a PR system. They would though be represented so their votes would matter. More relevantly the Brexit Party got 2% of the vote, even after committing political suicide, but no seats at all. Of course as an EU advocate I don't want us to exit. Nor do a majority of our fellow citizens, now they have seen what the implications are. Do you seriously think that if in 2016 we had voted to remain that would have shut up the likes of Farage? No. A battle has been lost but the war is far from over. A soft Brexit will make it much easier to re-enter when the mood of the country changes. As it surely will. Only when is in doubt and not if. Please give it a rest, very tiresome. You have been bleating on about how, in 2016 people did not know what they are voting for. Now after over 3years of debate and media coverage (plenty of which was negative towards leaving) you cannot say people did not know, they did and still voted to leave. Please don't carry on about the majority still voted to remain because in 2016 the majority voted to leave but that, in your mind, was not acceptable
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 14 Dec 19 11.32am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Since when has expressing opinions been "talking down" except in the minds of those who lack confidence in their own? The plain fact is that despite this landslide of a result being squarely the responsibility of a poorly led Labour Party more people voted for parties in favour of a final vote on Brexit than those who oppose one. That fact has not yet risen to the surface in the aftermath of the result but I predict that it will and as a consequence there will be a renewed push to see PR installed in the UK. That push won't just come from people like me but from those on the right who also feel under represented. The one thing you can be quite sure about is that those who oppose Brexit will not be "shut up" by this. They will reflect, regroup and continue the fight. The first task being to ensure we don't do any more damage than is absolutely necessary if and when we do leave. If some predictions are true Brexit might not finally "be done" until after the NEXT election and who knows what the political landscape might be by then. That you believe that my views, and by the way those of 53% of those who voted, are irrelevant, really is "talking down". Never during the aftermath of the 2016 referendum did anyone suggest that a 52% vote was irrelevant! All that was ever suggested was that as the basis of the question was inconclusive further work was needed. Yes, some fine MPs have lost their seats because of their determination to put their principles above blind personal ambition. In other words they did what every MP is supposed to do and used their conscience on our behalf. We have lost their wisdom, at least temporarily, simply because of the first past the post system. A system which can see a total blockhead returned in some constituencies provided they wear the correct label. We don't want sheep in our Parliament. We want thinkers and leaders. With the greatest of respect I never experienced a frisson of excitement at perusing the 'Thoughts of Chairman Wisbech'. In actual fact I assumed a repose of semi-paralysis and let out such a yawn I could have been a hedgehog preparing for hybernation. We are certainly on different sides of the house on the matters that were raised but at least Wisbech took the time and effort to make a lengthy contribution to the debate. Finally, "We want thinkers and leaders", I have to assert that Corbyn is neither and this could be applied to many, if not all on his front bench.
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| Spiderman Horsham 14 Dec 19 11.39am |
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Originally posted by chris123
Consigned to the BBS then. Having posted on there recently and received a torrent of abuse for my troubles, he would be welcomed with open arms. I cannot believe some of the stuff on there
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| Spiderman Horsham 14 Dec 19 11.40am |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Some people would vote Labour if a dog turd was the leader. There is definitely an age divide that will remain in place but I feel that the immigration issue will be a big part of driving traditional Labour voters over to the Tories. There is no other credible party that represents those concerns with Labour being perceived as Mass immigration friendly. They did
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