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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 21 Jan 21 10.05am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Are these figures suggesting that stroke and heart attack deaths are down because susceptible people are weak, already close to the end and are taken by something else?

Or because of better medicine, emergency response times and health?

Stats - you can say what you like about them...

 

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View davenotamonkey's Profile davenotamonkey Flag 21 Jan 21 4.51pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Easter's already gone.

He can't confirm lockdown will end by the Summer either. It's just an endless stringing along. Next will be autumn "just hold on, vital, final push".

It's called boiling the frog. The EU do it as well. Put the frog in boiling water, it will jump right out. Put it in cool water and slowly raise the temperature. It won't jump out. The end result is the same.

At what point are people going to just take their freedoms back, rather than foolishly wait for them to be given back?

(PS: they won't be given back)

 

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View davenotamonkey's Profile davenotamonkey Flag 21 Jan 21 4.56pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

...so let me ask you all here: should we be happy to have "vaccine passports" to prove we are not susceptible to COVID?

Are you happy having your freedoms to engage in society defined by this? Are you happy with our move towards a Chinese-style "social score", where the govt controls what you can do dependent on how subserivient you are to government decree and rule?

Does anyone find any of this seriously f***ing insidious? Where are the anti-ID-card advocates now? The Conservative party that once considered "Labour’s approach to our personal privacy [as] the worst of all worlds – intrusive, ineffective and enormously expensive". All good now?

For the record, I'm neither a COVID denier, nor an anti-vaxxer. I am, however, anti-authoritarian and pretty keen on not living under a quasi-police state ruled by fear, coercion and social conditionng.

 

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Jan 21 5.13pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Easter's already gone.

He can't confirm lockdown will end by the Summer either. It's just an endless stringing along. Next will be autumn "just hold on, vital, final push".

It's called boiling the frog. The EU do it as well. Put the frog in boiling water, it will jump right out. Put it in cool water and slowly raise the temperature. It won't jump out. The end result is the same.

At what point are people going to just take their freedoms back, rather than foolishly wait for them to be given back?

(PS: they won't be given back)

I think that's pretty pessimistic. There seem to be three reactions to this whole thing, that I come across quite consistently. Realism (It will take time but we'll get there in the end), Naivity/Ignorance/Stupidity (It will be over by end summer 2020, it's just a cold innit), Hyperbole (It's the end of everything we hold dear, police state, permanent loss of 'freedoms' etc.)

As a realist, I feel it's going to play out like this, providing the vaccines prove, on the whole, to be effective and most of the population get them annually...

March – Some easing of restrictions, back to small outdoor meets
May – Pubs and hospitality reopens, rule of 6
Winter 21/22 – Localised tightening (not national like now)
Spring 22 – Earlier easing
Winter 22 – Localised tightening if required
2023 onwards – gradual tapering down of already light touch restrictions until the virus in circulation weakens to survive (not guaranteed but likely) and our immune systems become better prepared due to annual doses and exposure. At that point it becomes 'just another' flu virus.

The above might work for the UK, but a big anomaly is the rest of the world. It's not ideal, admittedly, but the idea that our freedoms will never return and the inference that this is somehow planned, or has been taken advantage of by the government to permanently erode what we had before is a bit fantastical, to say the least.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 21 Jan 21 5.27pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Remember...back in March it was two weeks to flatten the curve.

Now I can't go to Tesco's with my missus.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View davenotamonkey's Profile davenotamonkey Flag 21 Jan 21 5.29pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Remember...back in March it was two weeks to flatten the curve.

Now I can't go to Tesco's with my missus.

The water was only lukewarm then, my fellow frog...

 

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 21 Jan 21 5.34pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

...so let me ask you all here: should we be happy to have "vaccine passports" to prove we are not susceptible to COVID?

Are you happy having your freedoms to engage in society defined by this? Are you happy with our move towards a Chinese-style "social score", where the govt controls what you can do dependent on how subserivient you are to government decree and rule?

Does anyone find any of this seriously f***ing insidious? Where are the anti-ID-card advocates now? The Conservative party that once considered "Labour’s approach to our personal privacy [as] the worst of all worlds – intrusive, ineffective and enormously expensive". All good now?

For the record, I'm neither a COVID denier, nor an anti-vaxxer. I am, however, anti-authoritarian and pretty keen on not living under a quasi-police state ruled by fear, coercion and social conditionng.

Happy is strong – I'd say no, but on balance it would make sense if implemented sensibly, which is not usually Governments strong point.

Important to remember there's still debate about whether this should happen at all. The WHO are against it, for example.

All depends on the efficacy of the vaccines really – if they're high across the board, say 80% or above (the flu jab is only 40-60%) then some countries may demand it for entry in the short term. And considering the potential economic damage caused by an outbreak, I can't fault the logic there. You can argue against that but ultimately they want to protect their economies, and ultimately their citizens. Makes sense.

By the way, this 'vaccination passport/proof' already exists for Yellow fever, polio etc. – some countries will not allow entry without proof of vaccination.

As for requiring proof in order to freely move around within your own country, I have more of an issue with that. But I can see businesses – corporate, leisure, entertainment or otherwise, embracing it, along with regular testing. Certainly in the short term. And again, why not? If they want to stay solvent and operating is there any other option? We may even get to a situation where events or businesses won't be offered insurance unless they have such a system in place.

I also think this is less of an ethical issue in the UK. We get the vaccine for free – it's accessible to everyone. Other countries, not so much.

On the subject of ID cards.. I see these as inevitable at some stage. Personally I've never had an issue with them so long as they're not invasive. Most people already have a passport, driving license, NI number, pay taxes... all information already held by government digitally. It's just a consolidation of that. If you want to go off grid, fine, but why should the state still pay out if you're not willing to register? What have you got to hide?

Also I think you're tin hatting a bit about the social score concept. Maybe been watching too much black mirror. China clearly loved it – as you allude to it's been implemented in some locations there, but if anything that restrictive was to come in here there would be serious resistance.

What it seems to come down to is people thinking all this is the 'new normal'. i.e. permanent. It's not – nothing I've seen, heard or read suggests it will be. The question is how long is temporary... in some peoples minds, all this should have been over last summer. Patience and logic is required

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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BlueJay Flag UK 21 Jan 21 5.55pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

...so let me ask you all here: should we be happy to have "vaccine passports" to prove we are not susceptible to COVID?


I notice that some cruise ships are going to be asking for proof of vaccination later in the year too. I view it more as something designed to keep businesses and countries ticking over, rather than having some dark or conformist motive behind it.

People seem to panic over this stuff, but tonnes of intrusive laws have been brought in over the years (typically when they're playing left against right or vice versa) that are far more unnerving than this, which is primarily genuinely health related rather than something with a dark motive.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 21 Jan 21 5.56pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

...so let me ask you all here: should we be happy to have "vaccine passports" to prove we are not susceptible to COVID?

Are you happy having your freedoms to engage in society defined by this? Are you happy with our move towards a Chinese-style "social score", where the govt controls what you can do dependent on how subserivient you are to government decree and rule?

Does anyone find any of this seriously f***ing insidious? Where are the anti-ID-card advocates now? The Conservative party that once considered "Labour’s approach to our personal privacy [as] the worst of all worlds – intrusive, ineffective and enormously expensive". All good now?

For the record, I'm neither a COVID denier, nor an anti-vaxxer. I am, however, anti-authoritarian and pretty keen on not living under a quasi-police state ruled by fear, coercion and social conditionng.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question.
"I've got a pill for all of you and your family, half are placebos and half are a dose of covid.
I cant tell you how severe the covid will be but you will get it from half the pills. You may not have symptons or you may end up in ICU. Who would pick first in your family". If you go for it you can go about with as much freedom as you want.
What would you do. Just a yes or no as that appears to be similar to the choice you want.

 

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View Foxy82's Profile Foxy82 Flag 21 Jan 21 6.21pm Send a Private Message to Foxy82 Add Foxy82 as a friend

Your papers please...

 


Red & Blue SInce 1982

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 21 Jan 21 7.25pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Let me ask you a hypothetical question.
"I've got a pill for all of you and your family, half are placebos and half are a dose of covid.
I cant tell you how severe the covid will be but you will get it from half the pills. You may not have symptons or you may end up in ICU. Who would pick first in your family". If you go for it you can go about with as much freedom as you want.
What would you do. Just a yes or no as that appears to be similar to the choice you want.

You’re comparing a one in however many thousands of a chance with one in a handful.

 


COYP

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 21 Jan 21 7.27pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

I think that's pretty pessimistic. There seem to be three reactions to this whole thing, that I come across quite consistently. Realism (It will take time but we'll get there in the end), Naivity/Ignorance/Stupidity (It will be over by end summer 2020, it's just a cold innit), Hyperbole (It's the end of everything we hold dear, police state, permanent loss of 'freedoms' etc.)

As a realist, I feel it's going to play out like this, providing the vaccines prove, on the whole, to be effective and most of the population get them annually...

March – Some easing of restrictions, back to small outdoor meets
May – Pubs and hospitality reopens, rule of 6
Winter 21/22 – Localised tightening (not national like now)
Spring 22 – Earlier easing
Winter 22 – Localised tightening if required
2023 onwards – gradual tapering down of already light touch restrictions until the virus in circulation weakens to survive (not guaranteed but likely) and our immune systems become better prepared due to annual doses and exposure. At that point it becomes 'just another' flu virus.

The above might work for the UK, but a big anomaly is the rest of the world. It's not ideal, admittedly, but the idea that our freedoms will never return and the inference that this is somehow planned, or has been taken advantage of by the government to permanently erode what we had before is a bit fantastical, to say the least.

Are you fecking serious, or have you got friends in cabinet? The suffering during and the fallout after will be shocking.

 


COYP

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