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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 09 May 20 3.11pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

I also enjoyed this take on VE Day. A little bit aggressive but some pretty good points made about the usual delusions of grandeur and rose tinted spectacles we as a nation have. That said, what nation doesn’t need to use some level of propaganda to make itself feel united? We are no different. Don’t like the reality of the past? Just make up a new one. ‘Mock-patriotism’ and ‘mythology’ - hard to argue with that. And if we need some level of fudging to make ourselves feel more important in the world, then so be it. Loads of people do it in the workplace every day to get ahead. Same difference I suppose. Just don’t get upset when someone calls your bluff...

Because it mires us in an idea of the past that is a myth, and stops us from moving forward as a country. Most of what people "remember" about the war is myth peddled after it. During the war the powers that be had to find something to console the public that was being bombed to s***, otherwise morale would collapse, so the "Blitz Spirit" was born. It was propoganda. As was the victory that was "The Battle of Britain" which was not won, Germany just had bigger war aims elsewhere . Of course the men who fought were brave, but they "won" nothing, as Churchill well knew. Overall, our role in the victory of Nazism was very minor.

Since the war, we look back as a nation continually. Our response to being beaten by better trained and more sophisticated and progressive football teams is to sing songs about how we won the war. Our response when we have to do something new is to call on the old Churchill spirit, and bring out the old totems. All of which stops us seeing ourselves honestly, as a declining post-imperial power with a destroyed industrial base and a service sector that makes us beholden to international companies who avoid tax and in the long run impoverish our nation. We rely on immigrant labour but we need to feel superior to them so we indulge in casual racism and our national flag is central to the iconography of innate British superiority. We have an outdated and inefficient political system, so we deflect to our beloved Monarchy so we can accuse anyone interested in political reform involving citizens with rights and responsibilties rather than subjects with obligations as anti-British. We wallow in patriotism when our athletes win Olympic gold whilst ignoring thefact that sports facilities are sold off, health and fitness ignored by government and as a nation we are more obese every year.

And amidst all this, we are asked to celebrate those brave people who went through the war, knowing that we sent covid infected people back from hospital to where thousands of those brave people now live in care homes, knowing they would get infected, knowing they would die, which they have been and will keep doing, and we are supposed to stand on our doorsteps and cheer because non-taxpaying oligarchs who own our press tell us its a good idea and a compliant media echoes them? There's patriotism, which is fine, and there's the self-conscious boastful display of mock-patriotism, which is what all this VE day nonsense is about. And each year, the fewer there actually left alive to honour, the louder the self-justified backslapping gets.

What VE day is about is not patriotism, it's about propping up our self-confidence by looking back to a mythic time when we were allegedly a great nation. I'd prefer if we were honest about who we are, looked forward and got on with making things better.

Yes have to agree with 99% of your post, but we did have the best football hooligans on tour all over europe,renowned throughout the continent, second to none, until those pesky Ruskies decided to play ball, gave us a good shoeing, and our last bastian of greatness disappeared, limply, after we controlled town squares with beer and chair flinging for decades! Sad times, we were not invincible after all, just the other nations were a little more welcoming, until those Russians spoiled our rep!

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 09 May 20 3.27pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by croydon proud

Yes have to agree with 99% of your post, but we did have the best football hooligans on tour all over europe,renowned throughout the continent, second to none, until those pesky Ruskies decided to play ball, gave us a good shoeing, and our last bastian of greatness disappeared, limply, after we controlled town squares with beer and chair flinging for decades! Sad times, we were not invincible after all, just the other nations were a little more welcoming, until those Russians spoiled our rep!

English football hooligans were under banning orders.

 


COYP

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 09 May 20 3.34pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Britain’s role and ‘Victories’ in the war were hardly minor. If Britain weren’t a free country for Americans and their war machine to dock then most of the world would’ve been screwed. Only access via Russia during so many months of the year or an American-German-Japanese agreement would’ve been the options until the Americans possibly threatening the atomic bomb before it’s rivals had their spies get hold of top secret files. Everywhere played its part, apart from the capitulation of France, although we would’ve been the same, and the Italians siding with the winners of the moment.

 


COYP

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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 09 May 20 3.52pm

Finally, i have to congratulate the government on the news that we are imposing a 14 day quarantine on new arrivals at the airport, and am suprised boris has acted so swiftly, 3 months is not at all bad , well done all involved in such a speedy decision!

 

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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 09 May 20 3.53pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

English football hooligans were under banning orders.

Thats why the ruskies didn"t bother sending their icf, just the under fives!

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 09 May 20 3.54pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Overall, our role in the victory of Nazism was very minor.

I think 'very minor' isn't accurate.

If the British hadn't been the core of resistance in the west then Germany probably would have defeated Stalin as Hitler would have had much more than three million men.

What lost the war for the Nazis was Hitler's miscalculation of Russia's ability to rearm its countless soldiery and inflict the losses a two front Germany couldn't afford. The losses and resupply problems slowed the advance. If he had waited till 42 and focused upon winning the Battle of Britain via over whelming numbers he would have avoided the war on two fronts.

The British would then have been used as slave labour on armaments similarly to the French....those that weren't shot or sent to gas chambers.

The fact that Britain wasn't knocked out of the war proved very important if not as pivotal as the failure of Operation Barbarossa.


Edited by Stirlingsays (09 May 2020 4.42pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 09 May 20 4.06pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Watched the latest joe rogan / Elon musk interview yesterday.

He makes some good points - mortality rate has ended up way lower then previously assumed. Yet we are still persisting with the same high mortality strategy.

Any person that dies and tests positive for COVID is being classed as a COVID death, irrespective of whether it was the main or a significant contributor, which is mental, and skews the data.

People reporting with symptoms - note not tested, are being logged as cases. The list of potential symptoms is huge. Again, bad data.

I suppose it’s made me question the legitimacy of full lockdown now, vs at the start, when it absolutely made sense. But usually you’re supposed to adjust strategy as you go, right?

The general takeout was retain social distancing and focus money and effort on protecting the most vulnerable, whilst allowing some level of normality to return to keep the economy ticking over. This is of course what is being announced tomorrow but all the while the numbers reported are inaccurate due to insanely loose criteria then is the problem actually as bad as they are stating?

I think someone posted the amount of deaths vs the average - that would be a more accurate gauge of mortality and therefore severity.

If they started to record cases and deaths in a more focused manner then I have a feeling the figures would see a cliff edge drop off straightaway.

It'll be interesting come the inquiry just how the report comments upon the government's approach and its and the media's messaging.

I couldn't agree more on the reporting of deaths. Once the order to judge cause of death on the 'balance of probabilities' without the need for testing came out then the only common sense approach became the number of deaths against the five year average.

Different countries are counting differently and outside of the observance that the virus seems to be following the same curve everywhere it's hard to gauge the successes of different approaches.


Edited by Stirlingsays (09 May 2020 4.15pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 09 May 20 4.14pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

So there is a possibility that you do believe in some conspiracy theories?

What's there to "believe"?

There's always a remote possibility that someone's theory might prove true. You don't "believe" that. You just accept the possibility.

There is a big difference between something based on rumours which start from leaks, and a conspiracy theory woven from unrelated facts and assumptions into a picture that is very unlikely, albeit possible, to be true.

Those who "believe" in conspiracy theories have a predisposition not to trust what those in authority have told them and therefore look for alternatives which then become established as fact in their minds and those they have influence over.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 09 May 20 4.16pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Britain’s role and ‘Victories’ in the war were hardly minor. If Britain weren’t a free country for Americans and their war machine to dock then most of the world would’ve been screwed. Only access via Russia during so many months of the year or an American-German-Japanese agreement would’ve been the options until the Americans possibly threatening the atomic bomb before it’s rivals had their spies get hold of top secret files. Everywhere played its part, apart from the capitulation of France, although we would’ve been the same, and the Italians siding with the winners of the moment.


Don"t dismiss the heroic actions of the french resistance brave men and women indeed!

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 09 May 20 4.25pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by mezzer

I don't necessarily agree with your take on things usually but your views are well put. However, in this instance, what a load of old tosh.

You may have an issue with the media and how they report it, but allow those who lived through it a bit of respect. They don't view it through rose tinted specs, they know what the reality was like. I never met my uncle because he died in Italy. I was going to visit his grave for the first time this year, but that's been put on hold. I was going to go because I've now lost my Dad, my Mum, my Auntie's and Uncles, all of them, who were able to tell me as a kid and as an adult about what it was like to live through the War. They lived in London and suffered bombings on their areas the likes of which none of us can comprehend. They all did their bit but asked for no thanks afterwards. To a man and woman, they were very humble about what occurred. And none of them are here now to visit their brother's grave.

Another uncle of mine and my other half's Grandad were prisoners of war, both in the Far East. They returned mentally scarred and never, ever wanted to talk about what they endured, each suffering from nightmares until the days they died.

None of them are here any longer, so I actually appreciate days like yesterday to look back, reflect, and yes, give thanks to them for whatever parts they played in keeping us from becoming German. I thank my lucky stars that I'm of a generation that never had to do National Service, as I'd have hated my selfish little existence to be disrupted. And I pray that my own children never have to do it either, although my nephew voluntarily joined up and has already seen stuff that I never have, and never want to. None of my friends have been blown up standing next to me. His best friend was.

So don't do days like yesterday down. What I do agree with you about is about doing our own thing to make the future better. I do so in whatever small way I can, and I trust you do the same. And neither of us ask for any thanks for doing so, I assume. So concentrate on the future by all means, but don't deny us the right to remember the past and those who played their part in it.

Great post. I concur 100% with your sentiments. Yesterday brought more than a few tears to my eyes.

My own Dad served in the navy and was on the Prince of Wales when it was sunk by the Japanese. He lost many friends that day and my Mum didn't know he had survived until 6 weeks later. We can only imagine what that must have been like but I probably owe my life to his homecoming! He rarely spoke of those days but I have done the research and read the book he contributed to and it was very, very tough.

Remembering what they did is an honour for me.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 09 May 20 4.26pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Wife just going to work, Central Management have sent an email stating under no circumstances should Officers wear face masks when dealing with the public! Despicable. Apparently Union have said that wear if you want and they would fight any disciplinary action to the very top. Personally think Home Secretary should intervene but of course, she may not know.

 

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View mezzer's Profile mezzer Flag Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 09 May 20 4.36pm Send a Private Message to mezzer Add mezzer as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Great post. I concur 100% with your sentiments. Yesterday brought more than a few tears to my eyes.

My own Dad served in the navy and was on the Prince of Wales when it was sunk by the Japanese. He lost many friends that day and my Mum didn't know he had survived until 6 weeks later. We can only imagine what that must have been like but I probably owe my life to his homecoming! He rarely spoke of those days but I have done the research and read the book he contributed to and it was very, very tough.

Remembering what they did is an honour for me.

Indeed WE. We don't agree on many things but on this we do.

 


Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

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