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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 09 May 20 9.38pm

Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle

Damn right, bloody Boris.

We’d have all been much better off under a left wing leader, just look how well Sweden have done.

U really think so tom? i wouldn"t go that far , but doubt they would have made as many bloomers as this lot have, but nice to know you"re open minded and unlike some blu noses on here prepared to see when your beloved have dropped the ball!

 

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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 09 May 20 9.49pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

I do not for one minute believe Priti Patel does not give a f***. To be honest your anti- Government responses are getting a bit tiresome now. I only posted regarding my wife to advise people what is going on, if it only provokes political points scoring I won’t bother

Ah, i didn"t realise this was a pro government brown nosing site, when did it become so? I was merely making a point, that you are so pro government, but when management make a money saving decision not to supply face masks, or probably keep topping them up every use as required, that you fall back on the leftie unions for back up, that"s not a great conservative stance, they are the union bashers after all, maggie would not be impressed! But don"t leave on my account, you aren"t as one sided as some blu tinted glasswearers on here, and can only imagine you think pritti is as fcukable as i do, as long as she doesn"t talk politics of course!

 

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BlueJay Flag UK 09 May 20 10.45pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Watched the latest joe rogan / Elon musk interview yesterday.

He makes some good points - mortality rate has ended up way lower then previously assumed. Yet we are still persisting with the same high mortality strategy.

Any person that dies and tests positive for COVID is being classed as a COVID death, irrespective of whether it was the main or a significant contributor, which is mental, and skews the data.

People reporting with symptoms - note not tested, are being logged as cases. The list of potential symptoms is huge. Again, bad data.

I suppose it’s made me question the legitimacy of full lockdown now, vs at the start, when it absolutely made sense. But usually you’re supposed to adjust strategy as you go, right?

The general takeout was retain social distancing and focus money and effort on protecting the most vulnerable, whilst allowing some level of normality to return to keep the economy ticking over. This is of course what is being announced tomorrow but all the while the numbers reported are inaccurate due to insanely loose criteria then is the problem actually as bad as they are stating?

I think someone posted the amount of deaths vs the average - that would be a more accurate gauge of mortality and therefore severity.

If they started to record cases and deaths in a more focused manner then I have a feeling the figures would see a cliff edge drop off straightaway.

While I agree that the impact of the coronavirus has been dialled up in some quarters, it's important to remember that as a multi billionaire business owner, Musk is always going to do the exact opposite. His emphasis is solely on getting the economy going, not on public health, and so he had a tendency to underplay and to cast doubt on concerns, rather that accept that many of them are indeed valid. As per usual, when people say it's not a problem, what they mean is it's not a problem for me.

I do though accept that out of necessity we do need to begin opening up somewhat before long. Hopefully it can be combined with crowd limits, face masks and the like to keep the spread at a manageable level.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 09 May 20 10.58pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by croydon proud

Ah, i didn"t realise this was a pro government brown nosing site, when did it become so? I was merely making a point, that you are so pro government, but when management make a money saving decision not to supply face masks, or probably keep topping them up every use as required, that you fall back on the leftie unions for back up, that"s not a great conservative stance, they are the union bashers after all, maggie would not be impressed! But don"t leave on my account, you aren"t as one sided as some blu tinted glasswearers on here, and can only imagine you think pritti is as fcukable as i do, as long as she doesn"t talk politics of course!

The reason for no face masks was not a cost cutting excercise it was because I quote “ it doesn’t look good to the public”. I am sure you would be concerned if someone close to you was being put at risk by Management. Yes I did vote Tory and am glad I did. One reason being I did want to be governed by Momentum and IRA sympathisers.
I was a Union member whilst at work but only for self preservation if required, doesn’t make me a leftie ( certainly if you knew which Union it was).
At this time I find political point scoring sad, but obviously you seem to take great delight in it, of course you are entitled to do so

 

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BlueJay Flag UK 09 May 20 11.23pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

I also enjoyed this take on VE Day. A little bit aggressive but some pretty good points made about the usual delusions of grandeur and rose tinted spectacles we as a nation have. That said, what nation doesn’t need to use some level of propaganda to make itself feel united? We are no different. Don’t like the reality of the past? Just make up a new one. ‘Mock-patriotism’ and ‘mythology’ - hard to argue with that. And if we need some level of fudging to make ourselves feel more important in the world, then so be it. Loads of people do it in the workplace every day to get ahead. Same difference I suppose. Just don’t get upset when someone calls your bluff...

Because it mires us in an idea of the past that is a myth, and stops us from moving forward as a country. Most of what people "remember" about the war is myth peddled after it. During the war the powers that be had to find something to console the public that was being bombed to s***, otherwise morale would collapse, so the "Blitz Spirit" was born. It was propoganda. As was the victory that was "The Battle of Britain" which was not won, Germany just had bigger war aims elsewhere . Of course the men who fought were brave, but they "won" nothing, as Churchill well knew. Overall, our role in the victory of Nazism was very minor.

Since the war, we look back as a nation continually. Our response to being beaten by better trained and more sophisticated and progressive football teams is to sing songs about how we won the war. Our response when we have to do something new is to call on the old Churchill spirit, and bring out the old totems. All of which stops us seeing ourselves honestly, as a declining post-imperial power with a destroyed industrial base and a service sector that makes us beholden to international companies who avoid tax and in the long run impoverish our nation. We rely on immigrant labour but we need to feel superior to them so we indulge in casual racism and our national flag is central to the iconography of innate British superiority. We have an outdated and inefficient political system, so we deflect to our beloved Monarchy so we can accuse anyone interested in political reform involving citizens with rights and responsibilties rather than subjects with obligations as anti-British. We wallow in patriotism when our athletes win Olympic gold whilst ignoring thefact that sports facilities are sold off, health and fitness ignored by government and as a nation we are more obese every year.

And amidst all this, we are asked to celebrate those brave people who went through the war, knowing that we sent covid infected people back from hospital to where thousands of those brave people now live in care homes, knowing they would get infected, knowing they would die, which they have been and will keep doing, and we are supposed to stand on our doorsteps and cheer because non-taxpaying oligarchs who own our press tell us its a good idea and a compliant media echoes them? There's patriotism, which is fine, and there's the self-conscious boastful display of mock-patriotism, which is what all this VE day nonsense is about. And each year, the fewer there actually left alive to honour, the louder the self-justified backslapping gets.

What VE day is about is not patriotism, it's about propping up our self-confidence by looking back to a mythic time when we were allegedly a great nation. I'd prefer if we were honest about who we are, looked forward and got on with making things better.

Good post. There is without doubt something to be said for living in the present rather than the past. Many with no direct experience of living through war time sink into it to such an extent that they almost feel like they were there. Well no, your own achievements and experiences in life are what you're about, not theirs. Of course though there are aspects of living vicariously to us all. Off the shelf aspects to life that we take to heart to build an image of who we are.

We do conveniently omit an awful lot; it is a rose tinted view of our past. And yet at the same time I did get drawn into elderly members of our armed forces talking about their wartime lives. None of this was elective on their behalf, they were brave and had a level of camaraderie due to circumstance that many of us will never fully grasp. And as far as wars go, they did help to defeat a fascist nation, and so it acts as reminder to always be on the look out for that kind of threat. Whether we have an eye on the Choudarys of the world or the far right types, it's important for us to know the terrain.

I felt bad that many of the celebrations held were put on hold due to this dreaded virus. Once again in their final years they find themselves at war, and on the front line.

Edited by BlueJay (09 May 2020 11.26pm)

 

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View Jimenez's Profile Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 09 May 20 11.49pm Send a Private Message to Jimenez Add Jimenez as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

While I agree that the impact of the coronavirus has been dialled up in some quarters, it's important to remember that as a multi billionaire business owner, Musk is always going to do the exact opposite. His emphasis is solely on getting the economy going, not on public health, and so he had a tendency to underplay and to cast doubt on concerns, rather that accept that many of them are indeed valid. As per usual, when people say it's not a problem, what they mean is it's not a problem for me.

I do though accept that out of necessity we do need to begin opening up somewhat before long. Hopefully it can be combined with crowd limits, face masks and the like to keep the spread at a manageable level.

It seems to me that anyone who farts or coughs then croaks is marked down as 'Died from a Covid 19 related illness'
Considering I live in the so called 'Epicenter' of this pandemic in NYC.
Not only do i not know anyone who's died of It
(although I do not confess to knowing 8.5M People)
I actually don't know anyone who's had so much as sniff or a cough.
Open up the Lock Down with the exception of schools & certain other 'at risk'& let the rest of us get on with it.
I was watching a Youtube video the other day & their is a general consensus among a lot of Doctors that not only is wearing a Face Mask useless except as maybe having a placebo feel good factor, It could actually be bad for you long term the same with latex gloves.

 


Pro USA & Israel

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 10 May 20 12.05am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Jimenez

It seems to me that anyone who farts or coughs then croaks is marked down as 'Died from a Covid 19 related illness'
Considering I live in the so called 'Epicenter' of this pandemic in NYC.
Not only do i not know anyone who's died of It
(although I do not confess to knowing 8.5M People)
I actually don't know anyone who's had so much as sniff or a cough.
Open up the Lock Down with the exception of schools & certain other 'at risk'& let the rest of us get on with it.
I was watching a Youtube video the other day & their is a general consensus among a lot of Doctors that not only is wearing a Face Mask useless except as maybe having a placebo feel good factor, It could actually be bad for you long term the same with latex gloves.

I found this a classic example of how well we are being led through the crisis.

Guidance issued one day, total about turn the next.

[Link]

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 May 20 12.05am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

The reason for no face masks was not a cost cutting excercise it was because I quote “ it doesn’t look good to the public”. I am sure you would be concerned if someone close to you was being put at risk by Management. Yes I did vote Tory and am glad I did. One reason being I did want to be governed by Momentum and IRA sympathisers.
I was a Union member whilst at work but only for self preservation if required, doesn’t make me a leftie ( certainly if you knew which Union it was).
At this time I find political point scoring sad, but obviously you seem to take great delight in it, of course you are entitled to do so

I hesitated before posting as I know you think I have no idea about the dangers faced by immigration officers but surely the point of wearing a mask is to protect others from you, unless you are given the same type they are using in hospitals which apparently are difficult to breath through? So what is actually being requested?

Would it not be better to expect everyone passing through a border check point to be wearing a mask? Indeed should that not be a requirement as you enter the departure airport for check in and continue until you leave the arrivals hall? Is that already being done?

I read that temperature testing is being trialled somewhere, although how useful that would actually be remains an unknown, given the levels of asymptomatic infection of C19.

If the UK has as high a level of infection as about anywhere else is it not true that the risk faced by border control officers is no less, but also no greater, than a cashier in a supermarket? Or am I missing something? I realise they will be handling passports and other documents but presumably are now wearing disposable gloves.

If I am correct then the supermarket cashiers here are not wearing masks, or gloves, and have only recently been provided with perspex screens, which are not dissimilar to those found at an airport.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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BlueJay Flag UK 10 May 20 12.14am

Originally posted by Jimenez

It seems to me that anyone who farts or coughs then croaks is marked down as 'Died from a Covid 19 related illness'
Considering I live in the so called 'Epicenter' of this pandemic in NYC.
Not only do i not know anyone who's died of It
(although I do not confess to knowing 8.5M People)
I actually don't know anyone who's had so much as sniff or a cough.
Open up the Lock Down with the exception of schools & certain other 'at risk'& let the rest of us get on with it.
I was watching a Youtube video the other day & their is a general consensus among a lot of Doctors that not only is wearing a Face Mask useless except as maybe having a placebo feel good factor, It could actually be bad for you long term the same with latex gloves.

I would suggest that rationality and evidence from nations that implement this strategy demonstrate that masks are at least somewhat effective.

Covid-19 as a whole, especially in the states, has been heavily politicised in both directions. So we have one side drastically underplaying, suggesting that it's no worse than the flu and no big deal, and the other thinking that everyones about to drop dead.

The truth is likely that if you're over 70 it's perfectly reasonable to see this as a worrying situation and you should take care, and if you're younger with no health issues you'll likely be fine - as long as medical intervention is available when needed.


 

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View SavoyTruffle's Profile SavoyTruffle Flag 10 May 20 2.11am Send a Private Message to SavoyTruffle Add SavoyTruffle as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

No one is saying ‘don’t do anything anymore’

I also have posted this as a bit of perspective - both my grandparents fought in the wars. It’s also not about disrespect - read it again.

It’s a more general point which I tend to agree with, around reframing things in a more saccharine and dare I say it commercial way at the expense of, as you quite rightly put it, reflection respect and factual correctness.

I certainly agree in sort with issuing VE Day as a use case to bring up the very fair point of British propaganda and bigging ourselves up regardless of reality

We’ve always done it and it’s partly the little man complex. And in fairness it works for us - galvanising and all that.

If you 100% subscribe to the ‘jolly well done let’s celebrate’ narrative that’s fine, but I choose to reflect in a different way with a healthy dose of realism and respect.

I certainly enjoyed the celebrations yesterday and always find it important to remember these historical moments, teaching the history to the next generations.

There did feel something somber about the day for me though, the contrast of many who didn’t live through it out waving flags etc, while the thought that there will be many of those who actually fought and lived though that tragedy now currently dealing with the pandemic effecting our care homes.

How many of those people out celebrating are the same that are happy to push the ‘all the deaths are people that were going to die anyway’ lines we have been hearing?

 

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BlueJay Flag UK 10 May 20 2.26am

Originally posted by SavoyTruffle

I certainly enjoyed the celebrations yesterday and always find it important to remember these historical moments, teaching the history to the next generations.

There did feel something somber about the day for me though, the contrast of many who didn’t live through it out waving flags etc, while the thought that there will be many of those who actually fought and lived though that tragedy now currently dealing with the pandemic effecting our care homes.

How many of those people out celebrating are the same that are happy to push the ‘all the deaths are people that were going to die anyway’ lines we have been hearing?

A very pertinent point. All too often people are happy to piggyback on others' bravery and service, and yet when there's an ounce of inconvenience in their own lives for 5 seconds, they're pulling the plug on these very same people. You learn an awful lot about peoples values at a time like this.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag The garden of England 10 May 20 6.50am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

I would suggest that rationality and evidence from nations that implement this strategy demonstrate that masks are at least somewhat effective.

Covid-19 as a whole, especially in the states, has been heavily politicised in both directions. So we have one side drastically underplaying, suggesting that it's no worse than the flu and no big deal, and the other thinking that everyones about to drop dead.

The truth is likely that if you're over 70 it's perfectly reasonable to see this as a worrying situation and you should take care, and if you're younger with no health issues you'll likely be fine - as long as medical intervention is available when needed.



Your last line is why we locked down. I guess by now when someone goes into hospital the doctors could more or less within a few days point and say goner live goner die no matter the intervention. Stats are giving them that knowledge sadly.
The 2nd wave may well happen and that's probably why the exel was made. Fingers crossed but this bug isnt going away any time soon and could get even more virulent. Pandemics are very rare so no knowledge of the last one, that being spanish flue and it's starting point in respect of contagion and effect are known.

 

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