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thai-eagle chiang mai 11 Jan 21 2.58am
Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Get out of here! Who do you think you are posting sensibly! This is a footy fan site. None of this reasonable guff is allowed. Toe the line. Roy out. He needs to be on a beach. Or a cruise. Or anywhere other than wrecking our team. 73 years old is past it. Football has moved on. He is clueless. He makes players play in the wrong position. He makes them get older and slower, and unable to pass a ball. He stops them from attacking, or defending, or playing football, and he has his favourites, and , and, and.... Nice post though Agree 100% with Tim Gypsy - on both accounts. Just wonder how stubborn Roy is? So scared of using younger players even if AWB and Mitchell huge successes. We are so predictable now it is getting ridiculous- and the players MUST be sick of the negative tactics. Why not have a go from the star some time...remember Old Trafford in August?
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thai-eagle

chiang mai 11 Jan 21 2.58am

Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64

Get out of here! Who do you think you are posting sensibly! This is a footy fan site. None of this reasonable guff is allowed. Toe the line. Roy out. He needs to be on a beach. Or a cruise. Or anywhere other than wrecking our team. 73 years old is past it. Football has moved on. He is clueless. He makes players play in the wrong position. He makes them get older and slower, and unable to pass a ball. He stops them from attacking, or defending, or playing football, and he has his favourites, and , and, and....

Nice post though

Agree 100% with Tim Gypsy - on both accounts. Just wonder how stubborn Roy is? So scared of using younger players even if AWB and Mitchell huge successes.
We are so predictable now it is getting ridiculous- and the players MUST be sick of the negative tactics. Why not have a go from the star some time...remember Old Trafford in August?

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Gary St.Andrews Kenley 11 Jan 21 10.08am
Originally posted by est1905 I tell you what, why dont you have a think about it. Try and stretch that imagination a bit and think of another manager out of the hundreds that are in/out of work throughout England and Europe that see managing a London club (one of the most attractive capitals in Europe) in the top division that happens to be amongst the best (if not THE best) in the World. But no, you're right, Sean Dyche is the only possibility hahahaha! You still haven’t named anyone, or are you too scared to just in case you get dug out...
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Gary St.Andrews

Kenley 11 Jan 21 10.08am

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Originally posted by est1905

I tell you what, why dont you have a think about it. Try and stretch that imagination a bit and think of another manager out of the hundreds that are in/out of work throughout England and Europe that see managing a London club (one of the most attractive capitals in Europe) in the top division that happens to be amongst the best (if not THE best) in the World.
But no, you're right, Sean Dyche is the only possibility hahahaha!

You still haven’t named anyone, or are you too scared to just in case you get dug out...

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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 11 Jan 21 10.33am
Originally posted by jeeagles The question was. "Honestly now - what would you do if you were him?". I'd 100% retire. I enjoy my job and make a decent living, but working is, well, too much like hard work. I'm not that motivated by money, so throwing money at me to keep working wouldn't make a difference. Maybe dable in bits of work here and their but I'd be f*ed if I had to do the level of work expected of a premiership manager. This is possibly why I dont understand why Roy would want to do it. And, I'd be interested to know what you would do if you were 73 year old millionaire whos achieved everything they could? In answer to your second question. I think you always need know what your competitors are doing and always try and be on the cutting edge. You cant rely on just doing the same as you always did as the world moved on. Fine to keep the foundations, but you've got to look for continuous improvement everywhere, all the time. Speaking from my own experience, there's youngsters now out of university who've been taught to use technologies that I don't know how to operate - that pisses me off because I thought I was always pushing for to use the latest methods. I've got to learn and embrace all the new stuff otherwise I'm f*ed tbh. If Roy wasn't so totally reluctant to change I might go a bit easier on him. I think we'll see Allardyce fail with West Brom this year. Whilst he's always pushed new technologies and techniques, he's not been at the beating heart of things for a while and his ways have fallen behind, losing his edge. Roy has been at the heart of things but hasn't looked to evolve. pretty much agree with everything you're saying. In Roy's head, he 'knows' football and what works/doesn't and won't entertain another way. What his approach fails to do is recognise that football evolves and you need to move with it or get left behind, as you've analogised above.
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Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 11 Jan 21 10.33am

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Originally posted by jeeagles

The question was.

"Honestly now - what would you do if you were him?".

I'd 100% retire. I enjoy my job and make a decent living, but working is, well, too much like hard work. I'm not that motivated by money, so throwing money at me to keep working wouldn't make a difference. Maybe dable in bits of work here and their but I'd be f***ed if I had to do the level of work expected of a premiership manager. This is possibly why I dont understand why Roy would want to do it. And, I'd be interested to know what you would do if you were 73 year old millionaire whos achieved everything they could?

In answer to your second question. I think you always need know what your competitors are doing and always try and be on the cutting edge. You cant rely on just doing the same as you always did as the world moved on. Fine to keep the foundations, but you've got to look for continuous improvement everywhere, all the time. Speaking from my own experience, there's youngsters now out of university who've been taught to use technologies that I don't know how to operate - that pisses me off because I thought I was always pushing for to use the latest methods. I've got to learn and embrace all the new stuff otherwise I'm f***ed tbh. If Roy wasn't so totally reluctant to change I might go a bit easier on him.

I think we'll see Allardyce fail with West Brom this year. Whilst he's always pushed new technologies and techniques, he's not been at the beating heart of things for a while and his ways have fallen behind, losing his edge. Roy has been at the heart of things but hasn't looked to evolve.

pretty much agree with everything you're saying. In Roy's head, he 'knows' football and what works/doesn't and won't entertain another way. What his approach fails to do is recognise that football evolves and you need to move with it or get left behind, as you've analogised above.

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NEILLO Shoreham-by-Sea 11 Jan 21 10.33am
Originally posted by leejaneagles You do have to bare in mind though what it takes to be in the top 1%. I’m referring to the richest people in the World broadly speaking but okay if Roy falls short of that you can break it down into several other categories - top 1% of Football Managers, top 1% of 74 year old rich people that didn’t grow up rich etc etc. Point is, to make it to the top 1% without inheriting anything is so extremely hard and aside from pure luck takes such a level of hard work and dedication that it’s probably impossible for Someone to just switch off and relax just because they’re ‘a 74 year old millionaire with everything they need’. The key to these people is a trait in personality that they can’t relax. A beach holiday for 2 weeks is hell, so the idea of doing that for all of retirement/rest of your life is probably agony. Could be coincidence but Alex Ferguson had a brain aneurism and nearly died a couple of years after retiring to relax as Man Utd Manager. Physically speaking he should’ve been much more likely to suffer a stress related illness whilst at Man Utd but psychologically it may well be he manages stress a lot better in a highly stressed workplace environment. When you take a look at a lot of other professions that fall into the top 1% - acting for example, you can get away with having a mini project once a year where the Director and Stunt Doubles can make Robert DeNiro look good still so people don’t notice as much. But you of course can argue the same thing for them - when your mind is aged and fragile, your body is stiff but you have the money to live on a Beach for eternity then why wake up in the morning to learn lines, travel to film shoot destinations around the Country/World, spend hours uncomfortable in makeup under hot lights, promote your film on late night chat shows? Surely they have all the money too like Roy? Well yes and they also have the same personality of never being able to rest. It’s a blessing and a curse. Reverse it and people like us dream of being rich beyond our wildest dreams so we can live on a beach or a Mansion. Sadly that’s the very reason we never will because we take breaks and enjoy relaxation time, most of us probably far too much to ever be SUPER successful. (Don’t take that as an insult or send you into a depression, I only mean a healthier work/life balance usually means you don’t achieve the top 1% in your field or of Humanity). I’m sorry I’m sure this has been a boring ramble but it was just in relation to you guys going back and forth with ‘what would you do in Roy’s shoes?’ It broadly doesn’t matter because what you would do is the very reason you won’t be in his position in the first place. So it’s moot. Edited by leejaneagles (11 Jan 2021 12.35am) I agree, successful people typically carry on doing what made them successful in the first place not because they financially have to but because they want to. There's also the argument that removing the purpose from people's lives has a detrimental effect on them, the old adage about dying soon after retiring. Stress can be positive or negative, and driven people typically need and thrive on stress. In Roy's case it appears to me that he continues to work because he wants to, not that he needs to. The conversation I was having around '' what would you do in Roy's shoes '' is perfectly valid in my opinion if you approach it from purely looking at why you would change your way of working if your methods have and were achieving your set objectives. That can apply in any walk of life, not just football management. Old, Ungifted and White
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NEILLO

Shoreham-by-Sea 11 Jan 21 10.33am

Originally posted by leejaneagles

You do have to bare in mind though what it takes to be in the top 1%. I’m referring to the richest people in the World broadly speaking but okay if Roy falls short of that you can break it down into several other categories - top 1% of Football Managers, top 1% of 74 year old rich people that didn’t grow up rich etc etc.

Point is, to make it to the top 1% without inheriting anything is so extremely hard and aside from pure luck takes such a level of hard work and dedication that it’s probably impossible for Someone to just switch off and relax just because they’re ‘a 74 year old millionaire with everything they need’.

The key to these people is a trait in personality that they can’t relax. A beach holiday for 2 weeks is hell, so the idea of doing that for all of retirement/rest of your life is probably agony.

Could be coincidence but Alex Ferguson had a brain aneurism and nearly died a couple of years after retiring to relax as Man Utd Manager. Physically speaking he should’ve been much more likely to suffer a stress related illness whilst at Man Utd but psychologically it may well be he manages stress a lot better in a highly stressed workplace environment.

When you take a look at a lot of other professions that fall into the top 1% - acting for example, you can get away with having a mini project once a year where the Director and Stunt Doubles can make Robert DeNiro look good still so people don’t notice as much.

But you of course can argue the same thing for them - when your mind is aged and fragile, your body is stiff but you have the money to live on a Beach for eternity then why wake up in the morning to learn lines, travel to film shoot destinations around the Country/World, spend hours uncomfortable in makeup under hot lights, promote your film on late night chat shows?

Surely they have all the money too like Roy? Well yes and they also have the same personality of never being able to rest. It’s a blessing and a curse. Reverse it and people like us dream of being rich beyond our wildest dreams so we can live on a beach or a Mansion. Sadly that’s the very reason we never will because we take breaks and enjoy relaxation time, most of us probably far too much to ever be SUPER successful. (Don’t take that as an insult or send you into a depression, I only mean a healthier work/life balance usually means you don’t achieve the top 1% in your field or of Humanity).

I’m sorry I’m sure this has been a boring ramble but it was just in relation to you guys going back and forth with ‘what would you do in Roy’s shoes?’ It broadly doesn’t matter because what you would do is the very reason you won’t be in his position in the first place. So it’s moot.

Edited by leejaneagles (11 Jan 2021 12.35am)

I agree, successful people typically carry on doing what made them successful in the first place not because they financially have to but because they want to.

There's also the argument that removing the purpose from people's lives has a detrimental effect on them, the old adage about dying soon after retiring. Stress can be positive or negative, and driven people typically need and thrive on stress.

In Roy's case it appears to me that he continues to work because he wants to, not that he needs to.

The conversation I was having around '' what would you do in Roy's shoes '' is perfectly valid in my opinion if you approach it from purely looking at why you would change your way of working if your methods have and were achieving your set objectives. That can apply in any walk of life, not just football management.

Old, Ungifted and White

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YoDougie London 11 Jan 21 10.42am
Originally posted by Gary St.Andrews You still haven’t named anyone, or are you too scared to just in case you get dug out... Just to jump in on this (I've seen a few posts asking others to name managers to justify why Roy is the best option). I don't know. That's my answer personally. But also, it's not my responsibility to know - and neither is it anyone elses on this site to justify this. I (and probably everyone else) here does not work for Palace with a scouting department and people in specific roles to seek out the best Managerial options. If I did do that, then I would have options. Because I can guarantee that somewhere, there is a range of excellent options that would be fitting for Crystal palace. My point is that, yes discussing options is great, but when someone can't name an option, it doesn't mean that they are wrong in thinking that we should look for a change. Edited by YoDougie (11 Jan 2021 10.44am)
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YoDougie

London 11 Jan 21 10.42am

Originally posted by Gary St.Andrews

You still haven’t named anyone, or are you too scared to just in case you get dug out...

Just to jump in on this (I've seen a few posts asking others to name managers to justify why Roy is the best option).

I don't know. That's my answer personally. But also, it's not my responsibility to know - and neither is it anyone elses on this site to justify this.

I (and probably everyone else) here does not work for Palace with a scouting department and people in specific roles to seek out the best Managerial options. If I did do that, then I would have options. Because I can guarantee that somewhere, there is a range of excellent options that would be fitting for Crystal palace.

My point is that, yes discussing options is great, but when someone can't name an option, it doesn't mean that they are wrong in thinking that we should look for a change.

Edited by YoDougie (11 Jan 2021 10.44am)

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NEILLO Shoreham-by-Sea 11 Jan 21 10.44am
Originally posted by jeeagles The question was. "Honestly now - what would you do if you were him?". I'd 100% retire. I enjoy my job and make a decent living, but working is, well, too much like hard work. I'm not that motivated by money, so throwing money at me to keep working wouldn't make a difference. Maybe dable in bits of work here and their but I'd be f*ed if I had to do the level of work expected of a premiership manager. This is possibly why I dont understand why Roy would want to do it. And, I'd be interested to know what you would do if you were 73 year old millionaire whos achieved everything they could? In answer to your second question. I think you always need know what your competitors are doing and always try and be on the cutting edge. You cant rely on just doing the same as you always did as the world moved on. Fine to keep the foundations, but you've got to look for continuous improvement everywhere, all the time. Speaking from my own experience, there's youngsters now out of university who've been taught to use technologies that I don't know how to operate - that pisses me off because I thought I was always pushing for to use the latest methods. I've got to learn and embrace all the new stuff otherwise I'm f*ed tbh. If Roy wasn't so totally reluctant to change I might go a bit easier on him. I think we'll see Allardyce fail with West Brom this year. Whilst he's always pushed new technologies and techniques, he's not been at the beating heart of things for a while and his ways have fallen behind, losing his edge. Roy has been at the heart of things but hasn't looked to evolve. I would be relaxing in my beachfront villa in Clearwater Beach ! I think we all agree that Roy is stuck in his ways. And at his age he's not looking to change much if at all. And therein lays the problem. As for Allardyce, he's another that talked about retirement but keeps coming back for more. When he was at Palace he was backed in the transfer market and got the desired improvement. He will find it a lot tougher in todays financial environment. Let's hope he does fail, one less place for us to worry about. Old, Ungifted and White
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NEILLO

Shoreham-by-Sea 11 Jan 21 10.44am

Originally posted by jeeagles

The question was.

"Honestly now - what would you do if you were him?".

I'd 100% retire. I enjoy my job and make a decent living, but working is, well, too much like hard work. I'm not that motivated by money, so throwing money at me to keep working wouldn't make a difference. Maybe dable in bits of work here and their but I'd be f***ed if I had to do the level of work expected of a premiership manager. This is possibly why I dont understand why Roy would want to do it. And, I'd be interested to know what you would do if you were 73 year old millionaire whos achieved everything they could?

I would be relaxing in my beachfront villa in Clearwater Beach !

I think we all agree that Roy is stuck in his ways. And at his age he's not looking to change much if at all. And therein lays the problem.

As for Allardyce, he's another that talked about retirement but keeps coming back for more. When he was at Palace he was backed in the transfer market and got the desired improvement. He will find it a lot tougher in todays financial environment. Let's hope he does fail, one less place for us to worry about.

Old, Ungifted and White

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 10.59am
Originally posted by NEILLO I would be relaxing in my beachfront villa in Clearwater Beach ! I think we all agree that Roy is stuck in his ways. And at his age he's not looking to change much if at all. And therein lays the problem. As for Allardyce, he's another that talked about retirement but keeps coming back for more. When he was at Palace he was backed in the transfer market and got the desired improvement. He will find it a lot tougher in todays financial environment. Let's hope he does fail, one less place for us to worry about. He has been commenting about how he will be activite in the transfer 'Window' but of course he might not be backed with significant funds. Thus far he has signed goalkeeper Andy Lonergan on a 'Free and Robert Snodgrass 'Undisclosed' Charlie Austin has signed for QPR on 'Loan'. Edited by Willo (11 Jan 2021 11.15am)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 10.59am

Originally posted by NEILLO

I would be relaxing in my beachfront villa in Clearwater Beach !

I think we all agree that Roy is stuck in his ways. And at his age he's not looking to change much if at all. And therein lays the problem.

As for Allardyce, he's another that talked about retirement but keeps coming back for more. When he was at Palace he was backed in the transfer market and got the desired improvement. He will find it a lot tougher in todays financial environment. Let's hope he does fail, one less place for us to worry about.

He has been commenting about how he will be activite in the transfer 'Window' but of course he might not be backed with significant funds.
Thus far he has signed goalkeeper Andy Lonergan on a 'Free and Robert Snodgrass 'Undisclosed'
Charlie Austin has signed for QPR on 'Loan'.

Edited by Willo (11 Jan 2021 11.15am)

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Jacey 11 Jan 21 11.20am
A realistic and fair report of the challenges that lie ahead. [Link]
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Jacey

11 Jan 21 11.20am

A realistic and fair report of the challenges that lie ahead.

[Link]

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southnorwoodhill 11 Jan 21 11.35am
Originally posted by Elwissthebest 'The season is not over yet!' Really? It feels as if it is. Great Cup run. Top half finish? Dream on. The usual scramble to get to 38 points is what awaits us. Oh, and it would be good if we could beat Brighton. That's all anyone at CPFC's really bothered about (apart from the fans). SouthNorwoodHill's excellent point about what Pulis achieved with what he had to work with is still to receive a convincing answer. Thanks I tire of folk defending Hodgson and suggesting his brand of mediocrity is ok because it keeps us in the PL and is the most we can expect etc etc. Hodgson inherited a squad that cost upwards of £100m, that's excluding his own purchases in the meantime - Sorloth anybody? Eze £20m. When it's clear that we need a creative midfielder, RB, and striker, he goes and acquires two defensive midfielders, because we were really lacking in that position! Pulis inherited a squad from Holloway that cost the loose change in Parish's jacket pocket, and took it to 11th. I ask, who took the players available and improved the team overall? With the players available I suggest that Hodgson has underachieved spectacularly, so much so that his methods have seriously demotivated them and it needs a half time rollicking from Lewington to actually get them to run about for 45 minutes. Time for a change.
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southnorwoodhill

11 Jan 21 11.35am

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Originally posted by Elwissthebest

'The season is not over yet!'

Really? It feels as if it is. Great Cup run. Top half finish? Dream on. The usual scramble to get to 38 points is what awaits us. Oh, and it would be good if we could beat Brighton. That's all anyone at CPFC's really bothered about (apart from the fans).

SouthNorwoodHill's excellent point about what Pulis achieved with what he had to work with is still to receive a convincing answer.

Thanks
I tire of folk defending Hodgson and suggesting his brand of mediocrity is ok because it keeps us in the PL and is the most we can expect etc etc.
Hodgson inherited a squad that cost upwards of £100m, that's excluding his own purchases in the meantime - Sorloth anybody? Eze £20m. When it's clear that we need a creative midfielder, RB, and striker, he goes and acquires two defensive midfielders, because we were really lacking in that position!
Pulis inherited a squad from Holloway that cost the loose change in Parish's jacket pocket, and took it to 11th. I ask, who took the players available and improved the team overall? With the players available I suggest that Hodgson has underachieved spectacularly, so much so that his methods have seriously demotivated them and it needs a half time rollicking from Lewington to actually get them to run about for 45 minutes.
Time for a change.

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TheBigToePunt 11 Jan 21 11.45am
Everyone can see the case against Roy. However, having tried to press 'Roy Outers' to: 1. Name a premier league club of our budget level who play the kind of football you want to see at Palace. 2. Point to a time Palace ever stayed up playing decent football in the top flight. 3. Name the (realistic) replacement manager they wanted. ...it seems pretty clear that by and large people can't. Southampton are having a little purple patch, but the evidence is overwhelmingly clear: Clubs our size have a far better chance of staying up by playing ‘anti-football’, and a far better chance of getting relegated playing decent football. We haven't had more than one season in the top flight since the early 1990s. For those too young to remember, I assure you: that brilliant team was not one for the football purists. Palace have never played good football and survived in the modern top flight. I repeat: Never. The argument that it is up to the club to find not just a replacement for Roy, but (and people forget this bit) also an upgrade, rather than for the fans to know who that might be, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If prospective new managers were well known, then we could name them. We can’t, so there isn’t an obvious one out there. If potential new managers aren’t well known (i.e they’ve not worked in the premier league before) then they are, by definition, a massive gamble. For every left-field appointment that does well there are five or ten that don’t. There are folk who want our current system of mandated government, or even capitalism itself to be dismantled, eloquently (and often accurately) explaining the faults of both systems. Ask them for a better alternative though and they can't, often resorting to:’ Well, anything is better than what we’ve got now’. I’m sorry, but that is the attitude of a child. We are the 16th highest spending club in the league, and can’t spend much more due to FFP. We have a long term plan in place to become a slightly bigger club, but it won’t happen if we get relegated. Anti-football is the most likely way to stay up. Roy is the symptom, not the cause.
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TheBigToePunt

11 Jan 21 11.45am

Everyone can see the case against Roy. However, having tried to press 'Roy Outers' to:

1. Name a premier league club of our budget level who play the kind of football you want to see at Palace.
2. Point to a time Palace ever stayed up playing decent football in the top flight.
3. Name the (realistic) replacement manager they wanted.

...it seems pretty clear that by and large people can't.

Southampton are having a little purple patch, but the evidence is overwhelmingly clear: Clubs our size have a far better chance of staying up by playing ‘anti-football’, and a far better chance of getting relegated playing decent football.

We haven't had more than one season in the top flight since the early 1990s. For those too young to remember, I assure you: that brilliant team was not one for the football purists. Palace have never played good football and survived in the modern top flight. I repeat: Never.

The argument that it is up to the club to find not just a replacement for Roy, but (and people forget this bit) also an upgrade, rather than for the fans to know who that might be, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If prospective new managers were well known, then we could name them. We can’t, so there isn’t an obvious one out there. If potential new managers aren’t well known (i.e they’ve not worked in the premier league before) then they are, by definition, a massive gamble. For every left-field appointment that does well there are five or ten that don’t.

There are folk who want our current system of mandated government, or even capitalism itself to be dismantled, eloquently (and often accurately) explaining the faults of both systems. Ask them for a better alternative though and they can't, often resorting to:’ Well, anything is better than what we’ve got now’.

I’m sorry, but that is the attitude of a child.

We are the 16th highest spending club in the league, and can’t spend much more due to FFP. We have a long term plan in place to become a slightly bigger club, but it won’t happen if we get relegated. Anti-football is the most likely way to stay up.

Roy is the symptom, not the cause.

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 11.58am
Originally posted by TheBigToePunt Everyone can see the case against Roy. However, having tried to press 'Roy Outers' to: 1. Name a premier league club of our budget level who play the kind of football you want to see at Palace. 2. Point to a time Palace ever stayed up playing decent football in the top flight. 3. Name the (realistic) replacement manager they wanted. ...it seems pretty clear that by and large people can't. Southampton are having a little purple patch, but the evidence is overwhelmingly clear: Clubs our size have a far better chance of staying up by playing ‘anti-football’, and a far better chance of getting relegated playing decent football. We haven't had more than one season in the top flight since the early 1990s. For those too young to remember, I assure you: that brilliant team was not one for the football purists. Palace have never played good football and survived in the modern top flight. I repeat: Never. The argument that it is up to the club to find not just a replacement for Roy, but (and people forget this bit) also an upgrade, rather than for the fans to know who that might be, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If prospective new managers were well known, then we could name them. We can’t, so there isn’t an obvious one out there. If potential new managers aren’t well known (i.e they’ve not worked in the premier league before) then they are, by definition, a massive gamble. For every left-field appointment that does well there are five or ten that don’t. There are folk who want our current system of mandated government, or even capitalism itself to be dismantled, eloquently (and often accurately) explaining the faults of both systems. Ask them for a better alternative though and they can't, often resorting to:’ Well, anything is better than what we’ve got now’. I’m sorry, but that is the attitude of a child. We are the 16th highest spending club in the league, and can’t spend much more due to FFP. We have a long term plan in place to become a slightly bigger club, but it won’t happen if we get relegated. Anti-football is the most likely way to stay up. Roy is the symptom, not the cause. This is a very sagacious post and I garland it with praise and concurrence.
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 11.58am

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

Everyone can see the case against Roy. However, having tried to press 'Roy Outers' to:

...it seems pretty clear that by and large people can't.

I’m sorry, but that is the attitude of a child.

Roy is the symptom, not the cause.

This is a very sagacious post and I garland it with praise and concurrence.

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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 11 Jan 21 1.56pm
Originally posted by Willo This is a very sagacious post and I garland it with praise and concurrence. I think it's a load of bs, glosses over the well-made points that do answer the questions posed of 'Roy Outers' and contradicts its own points. But by this stage of the 'discussion', no one is going to come around to the other way of thinking. There are those who want to evolve and move forward, and those who rather tragically settle for where we are currently thinking it's the best we can do.
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Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 11 Jan 21 1.56pm

Originally posted by Willo

This is a very sagacious post and I garland it with praise and concurrence.

I think it's a load of bs, glosses over the well-made points that do answer the questions posed of 'Roy Outers' and contradicts its own points. But by this stage of the 'discussion', no one is going to come around to the other way of thinking. There are those who want to evolve and move forward, and those who rather tragically settle for where we are currently thinking it's the best we can do.

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