There is a huge amount to be said for seeing what Roy can do with everyone fit (or better players available, same thing really), and I agree that he hasn't had that.

Even if we didn't get better players than this lot, I accept there might be a bit more that can be done within the envelope of 'anti-football' than we are doing at present, but not much. I reckon that if we had a different conservative coach then, even if he made some improvements without making major changes, given time the same complaints would arise. Allardyce and Pulis didn't stick around long enough for us to test that here, but we know from Stoke, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Everton and West Ham that both always end up facing the same criticism from their own fans as Roy gets from ours. I think anti-football, regardless of its brand, is much of a muchness in the end.

Moyes West Ham team last year (and in his first time at the club) were very dour, hence West Ham letting him leave and the discontent of their fans when he returned.

This year they have changed style rather than refined it I think. That's a difficult thing for many clubs to do once they get set in a certain way of playing, but West Ham have are much more of a pressing side now I think, much more on the front foot. When he fist came back, Moyes spoke at length about needing to get not necessarily better players in, but certainly more athletic ones so they could break faster but also press, which they haven't had the players to do in years. His logic was that you only need two or three who aren't up to it and you just can't play that way. He obviously had the plan in mind to make the change in style, and the club bought Soucek who is brilliant, and Coufal, and Benerahma, but as you say, it's more who he been able to leave out that has made the change possible I think. Lanzini was highly rated but doesn't get a game now, Fornals plays sometimes but is now replaced by Lingard. Anderson was massively expensive but Moyes binned him, Yarmolenko and Haller too.

I'd put West Ham in the category of having changed their ways more than a subtle evolution, and they could only do that once they had the players in every position to do it.

Could we do that? Apparently the Telegraph thinks we are only retaining four of the out of contracts, will buy four new players, and loan two. WHio exactly, and what style that might facilitate is not speculated upon!

Not only very true now, but true for most of Roy's time if not most of the time we've been in this league. Even when Tomkins and Sakho were doing well, I don't think either of them qualified as 'quick'.

The only addition I would make is that to press you also need the right kind of forwards. West Ham are an example of this. Anderson, Yarmolenko, Lanzini, Haller etc just weren't cut out to press the ball due either a lack of pace, awareness or attitude. Replace them with Antonio Benerahma and Bowen and the tactical possibilities increase even if the quality maybe doesn't.

I've never thought we could play pressing football. I just can't see Zaha being able to do it, and the early signs are that Eze is the same. If your two best players can't (maybe won't) do it, or at least do it to the very high standard required to make it work, even fast defenders won't change us.

Having analysed the previous 300 pages in some detail the conclusion is inconclusive.

Fast centre midfielders could help though. However, I agree - we're too slow to play the Gegenpress. We're also not fit enough. We'd get slaughtered.

So many Palace fans are dismissive and even call it insulting to be compared to Charlton fans when the 'be careful what you wish for' comments are made but in my opinion, without an affordable plan to change the way we play we must accept if we want to be in the top division that this is the best you're going to get right now. Like it or not Roy is a safe pair of hands, he is getting results out of this group of players and we are a comfortable lower mid table team. ten years ago every single Palace fan would have bitten your arm off for that.
I disagree with some who think Parish is above criticism. He has made many mistakes in the past but on this issue I hope he holds firm and sticks with Roy until Mr Right comes along instead of dumping him in favour of Mr Right Now just to please deluded fans that think we have some devine right to be playing sexy football, be higher up the table or both!
People really need to wake up and smell the Championship. Its just one poor managerial appointment away.

Why do posters keep lying on this board. Point me to a post that demands sexy football.

We get that you don’t agree, but it appears not agreeing is insufficient for some and it has to be accompanied by claims of fans with a contrary view being deluded.

Answer me one simple question. Do you think Roy’s teams played better during his first two seasons or the last two seasons. If you look back at this you will be some way to understanding why a large number of fans are no longer happy with our manager.