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March 29 2024 5.52am

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 10.38am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Of course. Let’s wait until the exhaustive investigation has happened. Surely China won’t object to that will they?

Therein lies the problem.

Whilst it's completely valid to criticise a system which shuns transparency, it's wrong to assume that means that there is something to hide. The Chinese take great offence at even the merest suggestion they are at fault. It seems deeply embedded in their culture. To get to the truth, we need to work within or around that. Confronting it head on will only lead to entrenchment.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 10.46am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

What, you mean like Black Lives Matter and most other left wing movements throughout history?

Populism can involve both left and right ideologies, although all the recent, and current, examples of those reaching positions of power, are authoritarian and from the right.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 24 Jul 21 10.46am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Therein lies the problem.

Whilst it's completely valid to criticise a system which shuns transparency, it's wrong to assume that means that there is something to hide. The Chinese take great offence at even the merest suggestion they are at fault. It seems deeply embedded in their culture. To get to the truth, we need to work within or around that. Confronting it head on will only lead to entrenchment.

To be honest with a minimum of 4m deaths (and counting) and the financial and societal fallout still largely unknown their taking offence isn’t a prime concern.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 1.13pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

To be honest with a minimum of 4m deaths (and counting) and the financial and societal fallout still largely unknown their taking offence isn’t a prime concern.

Of itself no. It is though if we want to get to the truth. We need their co-operation and if they simply raise the drawbridge we won't get it. Rumours will build and become regarded as truisms. Confrontation then becomes more likely.

China and Chinese communism is a reality. We have to find a way to live with it.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 24 Jul 21 2.03pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Of itself no. It is though if we want to get to the truth. We need their co-operation and if they simply raise the drawbridge we won't get it. Rumours will build and become regarded as truisms. Confrontation then becomes more likely.

China and Chinese communism is a reality. We have to find a way to live with it.

But we're still only going to find out what they want found 0ut. Meanwhile the dreaded conspiracy theories will proliferate.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 4.40pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

But we're still only going to find out what they want found 0ut. Meanwhile the dreaded conspiracy theories will proliferate.

That's the point.

We need to out think them and find ways that they want to provide the information. Ridiculing them, or the WHO, will have the reverse effect.

If there was an escape from the lab then ensuring it doesn't happen again is the priority. Not political point scoring.

My guess is that many seasoned politicians and diplomats understood this perfectly well when the outbreak was known to have started there and tried to damp down the speculation. Only to be faced by the blunderbus of Trump seeking an excuse for his failure, whatever the long term consequences.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 24 Jul 21 7.25pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That's the point.

We need to out think them and find ways that they want to provide the information. Ridiculing them, or the WHO, will have the reverse effect.

If there was an escape from the lab then ensuring it doesn't happen again is the priority. Not political point scoring.

My guess is that many seasoned politicians and diplomats understood this perfectly well when the outbreak was known to have started there and tried to damp down the speculation. Only to be faced by the blunderbus of Trump seeking an excuse for his failure, whatever the long term consequences.

Blaming Trump for everything is a complete cop out. They’ve constantly lied about the number of deaths; how was that Trump’s faults? Why are they going to come clean now?

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 9.53pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Blaming Trump for everything is a complete cop out. They’ve constantly lied about the number of deaths; how was that Trump’s faults? Why are they going to come clean now?

I am not though blaming Trump for anything they did, and still do. I am blaming him for what he did, which made the problem worse. His confrontational, diplomacy free approach was never going to produce the needed co-operation. It was only ever going to result in more determined stubbornness.

It requires a careful, nuanced approach which flatters and enables them to retain "face" at home, and in the wider world. That also means managing public opinion in the west, especially in the USA.

None of that is easy, but if we really want to discover the truth, and not just score points, then we need to try.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 24 Jul 21 10.21pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I am not though blaming Trump for anything they did, and still do. I am blaming him for what he did, which made the problem worse. His confrontational, diplomacy free approach was never going to produce the needed co-operation. It was only ever going to result in more determined stubbornness.

It requires a careful, nuanced approach which flatters and enables them to retain "face" at home, and in the wider world. That also means managing public opinion in the west, especially in the USA.

None of that is easy, but if we really want to discover the truth, and not just score points, then we need to try.

We can try in the same way we’ve been trying since Marco Polo. Hasn’t got us very far has it?

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 24 Jul 21 10.54pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

They know it came from the lab in Wuhan. There was a VERY high-level defector from Chinese intelligence who flew into the US in February with the proof.

Suspect he was probably feeding the CIA information way before that.

This is all public domain by the way.

[Link]

Now I apologise for linking to the Mail but wanted to just show how this is all out there. The sources I trust more are various intelligence-themed blogs and they have been talking about this for a while.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 11.06pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

We can try in the same way we’ve been trying since Marco Polo. Hasn’t got us very far has it?

The world, including China, has moved a very long way from Marco Polo.

I remember my father telling me stories about when he was in the Royal Navy out in China in the 1920s. We dominated then and even a 20-year-old rating demanded respect from the coolies. I have not been to mainland China, but I have spent quite a long time in Hong Kong, and was married there. I don't claim to be an expert in any way, but I do know that the mindset is very, very different. And that you don't cross "the party" and prosper. They also remember how my father's generation treated them.

If we are going to ensure that another pandemic doesn't occur in the way that some fear this one did, even though that remains unproven speculation, then we need to work within that mindset, and not try to impose our own. We need to find ways to convince them that we truly want to help and not to shame them.

We need to win a war, and to forget minor PR victories in side skirmishes.

 

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 24 Jul 21 11.21pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The world, including China, has moved a very long way from Marco Polo.

I remember my father telling me stories about when he was in the Royal Navy out in China in the 1920s. We dominated then and even a 20-year-old rating demanded respect from the coolies. I have not been to mainland China, but I have spent quite a long time in Hong Kong, and was married there. I don't claim to be an expert in any way, but I do know that the mindset is very, very different. And that you don't cross "the party" and prosper. They also remember how my father's generation treated them.

If we are going to ensure that another pandemic doesn't occur in the way that some fear this one did, even though that remains unproven speculation, then we need to work within that mindset, and not try to impose our own. We need to find ways to convince them that we truly want to help and not to shame them.

We need to win a war, and to forget minor PR victories in side skirmishes.

It hasn’t moved very far since SARS and now we have this. If this was a natural occurrence then it makes no difference how much respect we try to show.

 

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