Wales to Trial Universal Basic Income

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Badger11 Beckenham 22 May 21 7.04pm
Originally posted by W12 How could paying someone to produce nothing possibly work in economic terms alone? That’s leaving aside the utter nihilism of this idea. Yup that's my gut reaction as well, however if it did work and people also took a job and paid tax then fine. At the moment I believe that this is a the new unicorn of the left there is no evidence that these people become a economically useful. Still let's see how the trial works. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 22 May 21 7.04pm

Originally posted by W12

How could paying someone to produce nothing possibly work in economic terms alone?

That’s leaving aside the utter nihilism of this idea.

Yup that's my gut reaction as well, however if it did work and people also took a job and paid tax then fine.

At the moment I believe that this is a the new unicorn of the left there is no evidence that these people become a economically useful.

Still let's see how the trial works.

One more point

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Mstrobez 22 May 21 8.11pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Yup that's my gut reaction as well, however if it did work and people also took a job and paid tax then fine. At the moment I believe that this is a the new unicorn of the left there is no evidence that these people become a economically useful. Still let's see how the trial works. Whilst many on the left seem to support UBI it isn't inherently a darling of the left wing. Milton Friedman supported a basic income as it could be a good means of drastically reducing the size of the welfare state. Welfare state has a whole host of issues, not least the administration (which costs alot of money) and bureaucracy. Whether UBI is an effective means of replacing a lot of it is yet to be seen. But certainly worth trialling. We're the Arthur over ere!
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Mstrobez

22 May 21 8.11pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Yup that's my gut reaction as well, however if it did work and people also took a job and paid tax then fine.

At the moment I believe that this is a the new unicorn of the left there is no evidence that these people become a economically useful.

Still let's see how the trial works.

Whilst many on the left seem to support UBI it isn't inherently a darling of the left wing. Milton Friedman supported a basic income as it could be a good means of drastically reducing the size of the welfare state. Welfare state has a whole host of issues, not least the administration (which costs alot of money) and bureaucracy. Whether UBI is an effective means of replacing a lot of it is yet to be seen. But certainly worth trialling.

We're the Arthur over ere!

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W12 22 May 21 11.56pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Yup that's my gut reaction as well, however if it did work and people also took a job and paid tax then fine. At the moment I believe that this is a the new unicorn of the left there is no evidence that these people become a economically useful. Still let's see how the trial works. How about people realise they have agency, power and force in numbers?
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W12 22 May 21 11.56pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Yup that's my gut reaction as well, however if it did work and people also took a job and paid tax then fine.

At the moment I believe that this is a the new unicorn of the left there is no evidence that these people become a economically useful.

Still let's see how the trial works.

How about people realise they have agency, power and force in numbers?

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BlueJay UK 23 May 21 12.27am
Originally posted by W12 How could paying someone to produce nothing possibly work in economic terms alone? That’s leaving aside the utter nihilism of this idea. Most in the financial sector produce nothing of worth in realistic terms. They exploit and drain the system and when it fails they're bailed out by the public. Socialised losses, privatised gains. There is certainly 'some' logic to a minimum basic income because it at least results in money circulating from the bottom up, rather than huge corporations hoarding while perpetually avoiding paying taxes. It's worth a trial anyway. Edited by BlueJay (23 May 2021 12.28am)
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BlueJay

UK 23 May 21 12.27am

Originally posted by W12

How could paying someone to produce nothing possibly work in economic terms alone?

That’s leaving aside the utter nihilism of this idea.

Most in the financial sector produce nothing of worth in realistic terms. They exploit and drain the system and when it fails they're bailed out by the public. Socialised losses, privatised gains.

There is certainly 'some' logic to a minimum basic income because it at least results in money circulating from the bottom up, rather than huge corporations hoarding while perpetually avoiding paying taxes. It's worth a trial anyway.

Edited by BlueJay (23 May 2021 12.28am)

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BlueJay UK 23 May 21 12.29am
Originally posted by W12 How about people realise they have agency, power and force in numbers? They're pulled in enough ways by the powers that be that realistically they don't. All you need to do is fragment people enough to stop meaningful change and as we see from the average conversation it's job done on that front already. Even where there are uprisings of one kind of another, they're either demonised, stamped out, or the usual money and influence metastasizes throughout the new body politic in next to no time. What did the wallstreet protests lead to? They just infiltrated them and had public perception turn on them. Every big event (Brexit) or interruption to the economy (Covid) is then used to conveniently benefit the rich at the expense of the poor. Edited by BlueJay (23 May 2021 12.30am)
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BlueJay

UK 23 May 21 12.29am

Originally posted by W12

How about people realise they have agency, power and force in numbers?

They're pulled in enough ways by the powers that be that realistically they don't. All you need to do is fragment people enough to stop meaningful change and as we see from the average conversation it's job done on that front already. Even where there are uprisings of one kind of another, they're either demonised, stamped out, or the usual money and influence metastasizes throughout the new body politic in next to no time. What did the wallstreet protests lead to? They just infiltrated them and had public perception turn on them. Every big event (Brexit) or interruption to the economy (Covid) is then used to conveniently benefit the rich at the expense of the poor.

Edited by BlueJay (23 May 2021 12.30am)

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Ouzo Dan 23 May 21 4.15pm
We are going to lose more and more jobs to robots and we really need to find a solution to what is going to be a mass unemployment horrorshow, however im uncomfortable with everyone being dependent on the state, it gives them far too much power and with schemes like covid passports which im convinced are a social credit scoring system via the back door being rolled out, the whole thing screams of Klaus Schwabb to me Sex Panther 60% of the time it works every time
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Ouzo Dan 23 May 21 4.15pm

We are going to lose more and more jobs to robots and we really need to find a solution to what is going to be a mass unemployment horrorshow, however im uncomfortable with everyone being dependent on the state, it gives them far too much power and with schemes like covid passports which im convinced are a social credit scoring system via the back door being rolled out, the whole thing screams of Klaus Schwabb to me

Sex Panther 60% of the time it works every time

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cryrst The garden of England 23 May 21 5.04pm
I'm not totally against this but not in a cash payment. Maybe high Street vouchers or a prepay card. Used with a form of ID. That will stop this being used on anything other than essentials which is what we are led to beleive these recipients cannot afford. Is there a problem if this is how it was payed out? Local shops and businesses can be on the scheme so prepay fuel and services are accessible and transferring to cash makes it void. If you are desperate then this would be quite acceptable I would imagine.
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cryrst

The garden of England 23 May 21 5.04pm

I'm not totally against this but not in a cash payment. Maybe high Street vouchers or a prepay card. Used with a form of ID. That will stop this being used on anything other than essentials which is what we are led to beleive these recipients cannot afford. Is there a problem if this is how it was payed out?
Local shops and businesses can be on the scheme so prepay fuel and services are accessible and transferring to cash makes it void.
If you are desperate then this would be quite acceptable I would imagine.

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jeeagles 23 May 21 9.00pm
Originally posted by cryrst I'm not totally against this but not in a cash payment. Maybe high Street vouchers or a prepay card. Used with a form of ID. That will stop this being used on anything other than essentials which is what we are led to beleive these recipients cannot afford. Is there a problem if this is how it was payed out? Local shops and businesses can be on the scheme so prepay fuel and services are accessible and transferring to cash makes it void. If you are desperate then this would be quite acceptable I would imagine. High Street's don't really exist in recognisable form out side of Swansea/Cardiff/Newport. You might be a big supermarket, gyms, charity shops, salons, and an outdoor/indoor market. The issue is getting too and from somewhere with a decent job with prospects. If it was a voucher system, it would be expensive to administrate and still open to abuse. ID is still open to abuse, particularly in areas where everyone knows each other. The vast majority of people are probably trustworth enough to use it for something sensible. Those who abuse the system would abuse it already
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jeeagles

23 May 21 9.00pm

Originally posted by cryrst

High Street's don't really exist in recognisable form out side of Swansea/Cardiff/Newport. You might be a big supermarket, gyms, charity shops, salons, and an outdoor/indoor market.

The issue is getting too and from somewhere with a decent job with prospects.

If it was a voucher system, it would be expensive to administrate and still open to abuse. ID is still open to abuse, particularly in areas where everyone knows each other.

The vast majority of people are probably trustworth enough to use it for something sensible. Those who abuse the system would abuse it already

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W12 23 May 21 11.37pm
Originally posted by BlueJay Most in the financial sector produce nothing of worth in realistic terms. They exploit and drain the system and when it fails they're bailed out by the public. Socialised losses, privatised gains. There is certainly 'some' logic to a minimum basic income because it at least results in money circulating from the bottom up, rather than huge corporations hoarding while perpetually avoiding paying taxes. It's worth a trial anyway. Nope that would assume some level of benevolence in the elite class which simply just does not exist. UBI is just voluntary slavery. It will come with conditions that will become increasingly like a Chinese social credit system and ultimately lead to our overlords ultimate stated aim of depopulation. We are now considered to be “useless eaters”. Edited by BlueJay (23 May 2021 12.28am)
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W12 23 May 21 11.37pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Most in the financial sector produce nothing of worth in realistic terms. They exploit and drain the system and when it fails they're bailed out by the public. Socialised losses, privatised gains.

Nope that would assume some level of benevolence in the elite class which simply just does not exist. UBI is just voluntary slavery. It will come with conditions that will become increasingly like a Chinese social credit system and ultimately lead to our overlords ultimate stated aim of depopulation. We are now considered to be “useless eaters”.

Edited by BlueJay (23 May 2021 12.28am)

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BlueJay UK 24 May 21 12.26am
Originally posted by W12 Nope that would assume some level of benevolence in the elite class which simply just does not exist. UBI is just voluntary slavery. It will come with conditions that will become increasingly like a Chinese social credit system and ultimately lead to our overlords ultimate stated aim of depopulation. We are now considered to be “useless eaters”. I don't disagree that it would come with strings but what doesn't. And I guess we're now called consumers for a reason unfortunately. The only way to truly opt out is to tune out of ridiculous identity politics on both sides of the spectrum and likely live somewhere more remote - a natural self sufficient existence that nobody gives a toss about. Being at ideological loggerheads or an endless push to entrance us with the latest iteration of a gadget we feel incomplete without is just part of the game.
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BlueJay

UK 24 May 21 12.26am

Originally posted by W12

I don't disagree that it would come with strings but what doesn't. And I guess we're now called consumers for a reason unfortunately. The only way to truly opt out is to tune out of ridiculous identity politics on both sides of the spectrum and likely live somewhere more remote - a natural self sufficient existence that nobody gives a toss about. Being at ideological loggerheads or an endless push to entrance us with the latest iteration of a gadget we feel incomplete without is just part of the game.

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