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Why Can't The French Stop Them Coming?

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 14 Sep 21 10.42am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

Ah, this is the 'had enough of experts' position and better the view of the layman.

You dismissed the research papers because they do not look back far enough, but the immigration that Britain experienced in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20 centuries is not relevant. You say that you are interested in immigration immediately post WWII and then you express concern about immigrants arriving today.

"Like you academics are mostly on the left". Have you been in a university recently or ever? I can assure you that there are plenty of academics from the right. Oxbridge is full of public school educated upper middle class people that vote tory.

As stated previous centuries of immigration were not only tiny by today's standards but they were culturally similar being Europeans.....you are comparing apples and oranges.

Not only have I been in university I was a teacher for quite a few years. As for your contention that the right wing are somehow well represented there.....I view that as just further evidence of your disconnection with reality. Look into Noah Carl that will show you how well right wing academics and their research are treated.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 10.43am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 14 Sep 21 11.00am Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

For evidence of exactly what we are dealing with in terms of simple truth read this response to an attempt to find out information.

Deliberately avoiding the chap's attempt to discover which ethnic groups are committing what crimes at what percent.

[Link]

Also, look into this exchange and observe how difficult it is to get honest responses.

[Link]

I had a look at the stats given and I couldn't find an honest response to what he said.

Looking into the prison data it was also hard to find what I was looking for, buried deep within one of them I found this:

[Link]

'Overrepresentation of BAME individuals
53.One, as yet, unexplained challenge is the overrepresentation of BAME people in prisons proportionate to the general population documented in successive reviews.87 Most recently, Rt Hon David Lammy MP’s review into the treatment of and outcomes for black and minority ethnic people in the criminal justice system has highlighted the significant effect of disproportionality in prisons. Mr Lammy adopted an inclusive definition of BAME, which included gypsy, Roma and traveller populations. Across the whole system, 25% of prisoners are BAME, despite making up only 14% of the population. Disproportionality is particularly pronounced in the youth justice system; Mr Lammy anticipated this would get worse before it got better. In the year since his review the proportion of under 18s in youth custody who are BAME has increased by 1% to 45%; up from 25% ten years ago.88 Youth convictions often impact the future life chances of those young people. The Lammy Review cited that in the five years to 2017, 22,000 BAME children had their names added to the Police National Database, including for minor offences such as police reprimands.89 The proportion of Muslims in prison has almost doubled in a decade.90'

So we have to rely upon Lammy to actually look for the stats and only because he's take on it is to blame 'racism' in white society. When the stark reality is that the 'whites' that hold authority positions are doing all they can to avoid the honest conclusions.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 10.44am)

I think that in both cases the questioner was directed towards the data that they were looking for. There is a lot to see there and It would take weeks to read it all.

As regards the information about the Overrepresentation of BAME individuals in prisons. I would suggest that it is very difficult to up pick whether the cause is because these prisoners are immigrants, the children or grandchildren of immigrants or if they have just been let down by governments and society as regards housing, education, etc.

As you say, Lamey says that racism affects the lives of people who experience racism. That sounds like an honest and probable conclusion.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 14 Sep 21 11.10am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

I think that in both cases the questioner was directed towards the data that they were looking for. There is a lot to see there and It would take weeks to read it all.

As regards the information about the Overrepresentation of BAME individuals in prisons. I would suggest that it is very difficult to up pick whether the cause is because these prisoners are immigrants, the children or grandchildren of immigrants or if they have just been let down by governments and society as regards housing, education, etc.

As you say, Lamey says that racism affects the lives of people who experience racism. That sounds like an honest and probable conclusion.


Mostly nonsense of course.

But if you actually believe this rot then you can hardly be an advocate of globalised immigration for the Japanese can you seeing as you believe that bad treatment awaits them.

We pretty much differ on everything here.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 11.14am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 14 Sep 21 11.47am Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

As stated previous centuries of immigration were not only tiny by today's standards but they were culturally similar being Europeans.....you are comparing apples and oranges.

Not only have I been in university I was a teacher for quite a few years. As for your contention that the right wing are somehow well represented there.....I view that as just further evidence of your disconnection with reality. Look into Noah Carl that will show you how well right wing academics and their research are treated.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 10.43am)

Immigration in the past was not tiny.

Perhaps when we look at immigration in the past and numbers it is more useful to look at what percentage of the population they represent. The 50,000 Huguenots that came mainly settled in London and Kent. The population of London in 1715 was about 630,000 and by 1760 it had risen to 750,000 making it the largest city by population in Europe. By 1800 the population was I million.
This rapid growth was mainly a result of immigration from outside the UK and population movement inside the UK. This would suggest that Huguenots were about 7-8% of London’s population and by the time we get to 1800 the number of people with Huguenot ancestry would have been larger still. By the last quarter of the eighteenth century, the black population of London is estimated to have been between 5,000 and 10,000.*

*
[Link]
The above is a fascinating study of London’s population and clearly sets out how it has been diverse and multiethnic for many hundreds of years.
In 1851, over 38 per cent of Londoners were born somewhere else.

As you say the Huguenots were Protestants and that helped them assimilate. It is not clear though that this is the main reason that the Huguenots were welcomed and they thrived. The vast majority of immigrants that came to Britain from Jamaica were also Christians and they and their descendants remain more likely to be regular church attendants than other sectors of the population. Huguenots were in general educated people in possession of skills such as weaving that enabled them to quickly earn a living. Also, their technology was superior to that in Britain at the time.

Perhaps your experience as a school teacher was that you were a lone voice in a socialist enclave. My own experiences of school teachers both in my own education and the education of my daughter have been mixed. For myself, admittedly quite some time ago now, I would say that nearly all my teachers were mainly to the right, although that might be a reflection of the type of school that I attended. As for my experience as a parent, other than the majority of them be very charming I could not really say where their political allegiances lay. My daughter did call her history teacher a fascist when she learnt that he had stood as a UKIP candidate, but I put that down to youthful exuberance (her’s not his).


Edited by kuge (14 Sep 2021 12.20pm)

 

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View Ali_Campbell's Profile Ali_Campbell Flag New Addington 14 Sep 21 12.01pm Send a Private Message to Ali_Campbell Add Ali_Campbell as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

Not having a go at you but that is a very simplistic view. If your ideas came to fruition would you be happy to allow foreign convicted murderers/rapists/ paedos to enter unchecked? Believe me that will happen, as some try to enter now, I have seen them. There are many reasons for certain countries to require a visa, some political, some reciprocal, some for security reasons.

Edited by Spiderman (14 Sep 2021 7.32am)

Maybe, but that could be ironed out with a database check. Not all of the ppl coming over on boats are criminals. The majority just want a better life, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Why should we be a closed shop for ppl willing to come and work hard and pay into the system.

 

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View kuge's Profile kuge Flag Peckham 14 Sep 21 12.19pm Send a Private Message to kuge Add kuge as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays


Mostly nonsense of course.

But if you actually believe this rot then you can hardly be an advocate of globalised immigration for the Japanese can you seeing as you believe that bad treatment awaits them.

We pretty much differ on everything here.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 11.14am)

The thing about racism is you either choose to pretend that it does not exist and that therefore any effect that it might have must also not exist or you take the position that an influx of immigrants will result in racial tension therefore we should curtail all immigration. You appear to want to have it both ways.

As regards Japan I agree that it will be very problematic for Japanese culture to absorb large numbers of people from outside Japan. There is however no other solution if the population is going to remain viable. Without immigration, they become like the Shakers who advocated celibacy and also discourage people from outside joining their society. What happened to them? I think that right now the latter is a likely as the former.

The Japanese have of course plenty of experience of immigration, but mainly as the immigrants. Millions of Japanese left Japan in the 19th and 20th centuries for North and South American and other parts of Asia. There are over 2 million Brazilians with Japanese heritage and 1.5 million in the USA. Also, there are large populations in Peru and the Philippines. The UK has around 66,000 immigrants or people of Japanese descent. Second or third generation Japanese, known as nikkeijin, in the 1980s returned to Japan in large numbers mainly to work in industries such as car making. Although now as industrial production in Japan is declining many have returned to Brazil and Peru where they feel their economic prospects are better.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Sep 21 12.51pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

Immigration in the past was not tiny.

Perhaps when we look at immigration in the past and numbers it is more useful to look at what percentage of the population they represent. The 50,000 Huguenots that came mainly settled in London and Kent. The population of London in 1715 was about 630,000 and by 1760 it had risen to 750,000 making it the largest city by population in Europe. By 1800 the population was I million.
This rapid growth was mainly a result of immigration from outside the UK and population movement inside the UK. This would suggest that Huguenots were about 7-8% of London’s population and by the time we get to 1800 the number of people with Huguenot ancestry would have been larger still. By the last quarter of the eighteenth century, the black population of London is estimated to have been between 5,000 and 10,000.*

*
[Link]
The above is a fascinating study of London’s population and clearly sets out how it has been diverse and multiethnic for many hundreds of years.
In 1851, over 38 per cent of Londoners were born somewhere else.

As you say the Huguenots were Protestants and that helped them assimilate. It is not clear though that this is the main reason that the Huguenots were welcomed and they thrived. The vast majority of immigrants that came to Britain from Jamaica were also Christians and they and their descendants remain more likely to be regular church attendants than other sectors of the population. Huguenots were in general educated people in possession of skills such as weaving that enabled them to quickly earn a living. Also, their technology was superior to that in Britain at the time.

Perhaps your experience as a school teacher was that you were a lone voice in a socialist enclave. My own experiences of school teachers both in my own education and the education of my daughter have been mixed. For myself, admittedly quite some time ago now, I would say that nearly all my teachers were mainly to the right, although that might be a reflection of the type of school that I attended. As for my experience as a parent, other than the majority of them be very charming I could not really say where their political allegiances lay. My daughter did call her history teacher a fascist when she learnt that he had stood as a UKIP candidate, but I put that down to youthful exuberance (her’s not his).


Edited by kuge (14 Sep 2021 12.20pm)

London is not representative of Britain.

Have you ever seen old films of crowd scenes before the 1940s? You will hardly see a Black face. Some immigrants are White of course, but most people in this country have a genetic heritage going back hundreds if not thousands of years. That is about to change.

You seem to be obsessed with Huguenots, and that's not surprising since they are White Protestant and European. Hardly any different to the existing population and with the added bonus of skills. Yes, we can see why you are obsessed with them.

We all know that migrants have been coming here for years. Yes, a trickle have been coming here for centuries when Britain had a tiny population and there was an abundance of land and resources.
This is not just about crime. It's about politics, culture, religion, sectarianism, resources, national security and the very survival of the existing population.
The current trend will mean that the existing population will be virtually replaced in a few generations. Those that are here will struggle for housing, water, energy, and health care.

You want to argue about Romans and quibble about crime statistics, but the bigger picture is about much more.

I wonder if the Beaker people told the locals how lucky they were to get new technology, or if Homo Sapiens provided statistics to the Neanderthals to show them that they had nothing to worry about.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Sep 2021 12.54pm)

 

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View DanH's Profile DanH Flag SW2 14 Sep 21 12.57pm Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

London is not representative of Britain.

Have you ever seen old films of crowd scenes before the 1940s? You will hardly see a Black face. Some immigrants are White of course, but most people in this country have a genetic heritage going back hundreds if not thousands of years. That is about to change.

You seem to be obsessed with Huguenots, and that's not surprising since they are White Protestant and European. Hardly any different to the existing population and with the added bonus of skills. Yes, we can see why you are obsessed with them.

We all know that migrants have been coming here for years. Yes, a trickle have been coming here for centuries when Britain had a tiny population and there was an abundance of land and resources.
This is not just about crime. It's about politics, culture, religion, sectarianism, resources, national security and the very survival of the existing population.
The current trend will mean that the existing population will be virtually replaced in a few generations. Those that are here will struggle for housing, water, energy, and health care.

You want to argue about Romans and quibble about crime statistics, but the bigger picture is about much more.

I wonder if the Beaker people told the locals how lucky they were to get new technology, or if Homo Sapiens provided statistics to the Neanderthals to show them that they had nothing to worry about.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Sep 2021 12.54pm)

And there we go, the great replacement theory once again.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 14 Sep 21 1.18pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Ali_Campbell

Maybe, but that could be ironed out with a database check. Not all of the ppl coming over on boats are criminals. The majority just want a better life, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Why should we be a closed shop for ppl willing to come and work hard and pay into the system.

I wasn’t suggesting they were, certainly not my intention. There are data bases in place now which are used, prior to issuance of visas or granting leave to enter. Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting a better life ( don’t we all) but there has to be a limit to how many the UK can house/support.
Unfortunately not all those arriving want to work hard and of course, without documentation it is impossible to check them against any database

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Sep 21 1.28pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by DanH

And there we go, the great replacement theory once again.

Yawn. It is simple to understand, even for you.

Associating something, easily demonstrable with negative imagery, is a very old trick. It is the only weapon you have to counter reality.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 14 Sep 21 1.36pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by kuge

The thing about racism is you either choose to pretend that it does not exist and that therefore any effect that it might have must also not exist or you take the position that an influx of immigrants will result in racial tension therefore we should curtail all immigration. You appear to want to have it both ways.

As regards Japan I agree that it will be very problematic for Japanese culture to absorb large numbers of people from outside Japan. There is however no other solution if the population is going to remain viable. Without immigration, they become like the Shakers who advocated celibacy and also discourage people from outside joining their society. What happened to them? I think that right now the latter is a likely as the former.

The Japanese have of course plenty of experience of immigration, but mainly as the immigrants. Millions of Japanese left Japan in the 19th and 20th centuries for North and South American and other parts of Asia. There are over 2 million Brazilians with Japanese heritage and 1.5 million in the USA. Also, there are large populations in Peru and the Philippines. The UK has around 66,000 immigrants or people of Japanese descent. Second or third generation Japanese, known as nikkeijin, in the 1980s returned to Japan in large numbers mainly to work in industries such as car making. Although now as industrial production in Japan is declining many have returned to Brazil and Peru where they feel their economic prospects are better.

Both you and your links continually stated that 'immigrants', and I'm obviously referring to non Europeans weren't responsible for an increase in crime versus the native population.

Yet, when I show you evidence that BAME are over represented in prisons and hence crime, instead of explaining this you reach for the racism debate....which is kind of an off shoot.

It looks very likely that those studies you linked to were actually swerving reality by focusing on first wave and that Lammy is prepared to be more truthful.....though as I say only as a device towards his own ends.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 1.36pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 14 Sep 21 1.39pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ali_Campbell

Maybe, but that could be ironed out with a database check. Not all of the ppl coming over on boats are criminals. The majority just want a better life, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Why should we be a closed shop for ppl willing to come and work hard and pay into the system.

Because these islands aren't meant to be a global village.

It's a northern European set of countries for the British.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Sep 2021 1.41pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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