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CONservative government incompetence.

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 09 Jan 23 6.19pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There isn't one form of man, just as there isn't one form of woman. It's commentary like yours which refuses to recognise mental illness and gender dysphoria.

It is not a kindness.

I suppose that could be regarded as progress!

When you have spent as much time in SE Asia as I have you will understand just what that really means. There are people there who are .. stunningly beautiful ladies in every way except one tiny detail. They would turn the head’s of most men, are shapely, well dressed and sexy. They just happen to pee like you and I do.

These people are completely accepted in their society and don’t face the same level of rejection their equivalents do here. Most times you simply wouldn’t know unless you got yourself into an intimate situation. No doubt some have developed their appearance with hormones, which I don’t believe is done here so easily as it is there.

These aren’t gay or mentally ill men. They are women who have been born with part of their body out of tune with their sexuality.

All the time people like you remain determined to impose your ignorance on others, our society’s progress is hampered.

 

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MrWhyNot Flag 09 Jan 23 6.44pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

There is a shocking and appalling suicide rate aligned to transgenderism which is falsely attributed to societal rejection of the 'ism' and has seriously ignored the possibility of individuals being led to believe they are 'transgender' when actually their issues, which as stated often lead to suicide, lie elsewhere and go untreated and exacerbated through being hijacked by ideologues or idiots. Transgenderism often suits a narrative for a course of action some individuals are looking to pursue as opposed to being of genuine concern as a stand alone entity to them.

Those looking for 'acceptance' I can, even if I don't understand, certainly make room for as a human being. What I reject is having the fabric and laws of society changed and being constantly bombarded with ideological propaganda by a 'movement' which, as far as I am concerned, is seeking to achieve that which lies separately to it's smokescreen, purported ideals - treating people with dignity and understanding them.

I'd say that societal reaction to trans people certainly rationally has always played into their mental health issues in a significant way. That is certainly not to say that everyone with gender issues should seek to physically alter themselves, though for some it is possibly the closest they're going to get to an answer.

It's one of those issues that has become so hyper politicised in all directions, that if someone feels this way, at this point in time I can barely blame them for offing themselves due to others input or their own turmoil. There are genuinely people who are 'never' going to feel comfortable in their own body 'as is' regardless of any therapy. There's a F2M person in my extended family, who would be a good example of this. His life was hell prior and now he's well adjusted, but does not discuss this issue with most (on account that most do not know and specifically because their judgement of him would likely be damaging or surplus to requirement).

I do see though that there are those who trivialise or jump on board with a kind of 'today I'm she/them/this/that' passing trend. As such laws to allow people to make quick decisions without scrutiny at a young age are bad in my view. It all gets thrown into the same pile and only the out there or politicised voices are heard, rather than personal stories that explain an individuals outlook and life. It all falls to a backdrop of serious and understandable concerns that womens spaces being treated as something anyone can dip into when they want regardless of motivation or medical history. A perfect storm really.

As with most things in life, some thown in one angled views on a football forum, be it mine or others, may not be much of a fair, full, or reasoned answer to anything and it's always very easy to reduce the complexities of others challenges and experiences when they are not our own.

Edited by MrWhyNot (09 Jan 2023 7.06pm)

 

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MrWhyNot Flag 09 Jan 23 7.02pm

"Support for businesses with their energy bills is to be reduced from April, the government has confirmed.

Under the new scheme, firms will get a discount on wholesale prices rather than their costs being capped as under the current one.

Very heavy energy-using sectors, mainly manufacturers, will get a larger discount than others.

But firms paying under a certain price for their energy wholesale will not get support."

Good luck to small business owners. Yet another hold on tight year.

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 09 Jan 23 7.13pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by MrWhyNot

I'd say that societal reaction to trans people certainly rationally has always played into their mental health issues in a significant way. That is certainly not to say that everyone with gender issues should seek to physically alter themselves though, though for some it is possibly the closest they're going to get to an answer.

It's one of those issues that has become so hyper politicised in all directions, that if someone feels this way, at this point in time I can barely blame them for offering themselves due to others input. There are genuinely people who are 'never' going to feel comfortable in their own body 'as is' regardless of any therapy. There's a F2M person in my extended family, who would be a good example of this. His life was hell prior and now he's well adjusted, but does not discuss this issue with most (on account that most do not know and specifically because their judgement of him would likely be damaging or surplus to requirement).

I also think though there are people who trivialise or jump on board with a kind of 'today I'm she/them/this/that' passing trend. As such laws to allow people to make quick decisions without scrutiny at a young age are bad in my view. It all gets thrown into the same pile and only the out there or politicised voices are heard, rather than personal stories that explain a persons oulook and life. It all falls to a backdrop of serious and understandable concerns that womens spaces being treated as something anyone can dip into when they want regardless of motivation of medical history. A perfect storm really.

As with most things in life, some thown in one angled views on a football forum, be it mine or others, may not be much of a fair full, or reasoned answer to anything and it's always very easy to reduce the complexities of others challenges and experiences when they are not our own.


Edited by MrWhyNot (09 Jan 2023 6.55pm)

For clarity, that may be poor articulation on my behalf MWN and telling of my capacity to communicate succinctly on a football fans forum, or not in the majority of cases - a delusion I do not labour under. I mark you absolutely right as what I was criticising was indeed the hyper-politicisation, hijacking of, and absolutist approach to 'transgenderism'. There was a very good and insightful post a while ago (cannot remember whom) alluding to a situation of a colleague and very similar to the one you have described.

I do not think it possible to absolutely dismiss an individual's claims of being 'transgender'. That we will never know at best but also I would be inclined to believe that there is significant evidence to at least constitute some validity. That would rule out an absolute dismissal of a 'psychological phenomena', if you will, however my opposition is directed primarily towards those who flirt or interfere with this assessment, angling from the other extreme of the spectrum. This is something I believe we are seeing play out in political society and I fear will be of detriment to us all, including those who may have a very genuine basis for finding solace in identifying as Transgender. It is, from my perspective (which I recognise is not an authority by any stretch of the imagination) being reduced to a political or cultural movement as opposed to anything remotely promoted with the interest of individuals at heart. This is seeing common sense fly out of the window, again, just IMO and I fear is on a downwards trajectory in terms of societal impact.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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MrWhyNot Flag 09 Jan 23 7.31pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

For clarity, that may be poor articulation on my behalf MWN and telling of my capacity to communicate succinctly on a football fans forum, or not in the majority of cases - a delusion I do not labour under. I mark you absolutely right as what I was criticising was indeed the hyper-politicisation, hijacking of, and absolutist approach to 'transgenderism'. There was a very good and insightful post a while ago (cannot remember whom) alluding to a situation of a colleague and very similar to the one you have described.

I do not think it possible to absolutely dismiss an individual's claims of being 'transgender'. That we will never know at best but also I would be inclined to believe that there is significant evidence to at least constitute some validity. That would rule out an absolute dismissal of a 'psychological phenomena', if you will, however my opposition is directed primarily towards those who flirt or interfere with this assessment, angling from the other extreme of the spectrum. This is something I believe we are seeing play out in political society and I fear will be of detriment to us all, including those who may have a very genuine basis for finding solace in identifying as Transgender. It is, from my perspective (which I recognise is not an authority by any stretch of the imagination) being reduced to a political or cultural movement as opposed to anything remotely promoted with the interest of individuals at heart. This is seeing common sense fly out of the window, again, just IMO and I fear is on a downwards trajectory in terms of societal impact.

Certainly, I do see changes such as fast tracking young people being able to make significant irreversible decisions at a young age (which logically if they are able to do quickly and without therapy has a greater chance of regret) as negative and political. Pushing through such changes without listening to all pertinent voices on the matter raises the temperature rather than makes the issue go away.

The complete lack of compromise on issues contorts them to a point where balance is drowned out and appropriate steps bypassed. From there, those who would seek to live the quiet life then also have the spotlight placed upon their ever move against their will due to activist types, when this is likely the last thing many of them would've wanted either.

Edited by MrWhyNot (09 Jan 2023 7.32pm)

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 09 Jan 23 11.21pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by MrWhyNot

Certainly, I do see changes such as fast tracking young people being able to make significant irreversible decisions at a young age (which logically if they are able to do quickly and without therapy has a greater chance of regret) as negative and political. Pushing through such changes without listening to all pertinent voices on the matter raises the temperature rather than makes the issue go away.

The complete lack of compromise on issues contorts them to a point where balance is drowned out and appropriate steps bypassed. From there, those who would seek to live the quiet life then also have the spotlight placed upon their ever move against their will due to activist types, when this is likely the last thing many of them would've wanted either.

Edited by MrWhyNot (09 Jan 2023 7.32pm)

It is so frustrating that every thread on this site is completely full of opinion, yet devoid of data or actual case studies.

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

[Link]

Respondents who experienced discrimination or were a victim of violence were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide. Access to gender-affirming medical care is associated with a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts.

[Link]

Suicidality is associated with desiring gender affirming surgery in the future, gender based victimisation and institutionalised cissexism. Interventions to increase social inclusion, reduce transphobia and enable access to gender affirming care, particularly surgical interventions, are potential areas of intervention.

[Link]

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 09 Jan 23 11.28pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by MrWhyNot

Certainly, I do see changes such as fast tracking young people being able to make significant irreversible decisions at a young age (which logically if they are able to do quickly and without therapy has a greater chance of regret) as negative and political. Pushing through such changes without listening to all pertinent voices on the matter raises the temperature rather than makes the issue go away.

The complete lack of compromise on issues contorts them to a point where balance is drowned out and appropriate steps bypassed. From there, those who would seek to live the quiet life then also have the spotlight placed upon their ever move against their will due to activist types, when this is likely the last thing many of them would've wanted either.

Edited by MrWhyNot (09 Jan 2023 7.32pm)

I’m not going to bother adding to that but will state I fully agree. If you ever fancy some ‘care in the community’ work I’ll write to my local council for funding so you can convert my grunts and communications through a glottal stop into posts for me MYN!

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 10 Jan 23 12.24am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

It is so frustrating that every thread on this site is completely full of opinion, yet devoid of data or actual case studies.

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

[Link]

Respondents who experienced discrimination or were a victim of violence were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide. Access to gender-affirming medical care is associated with a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts.

[Link]

Suicidality is associated with desiring gender affirming surgery in the future, gender based victimisation and institutionalised cissexism. Interventions to increase social inclusion, reduce transphobia and enable access to gender affirming care, particularly surgical interventions, are potential areas of intervention.

[Link]

It’s an internet forum Maple that’s sort of the point.

As for your sources, as with anything loosely within this field, it’s easy to poke holes in , scrutinise, cast doubt over etc. which it is too late in the evening for me to do even if I wanted to. It is also possible to site sources for just about any opinion these days, as it has been, where possible, throughout history. Doesn’t nullify any discussion, opinion of individuals on such things or categorically prove anything however.

You know what, F-it I actually did! Any comment on this?

[Link]

There’s a lot of criticism of this group and a number of notable academics have endorsed, and in some cases been coerced into apologising, for supporting what seems like ‘the other end of the spectrum’. This group is supposedly comprised of academics, amongst others, however I am sceptical yet unaware of the truth in this. But whom to believe? Perhaps we could suggest that there is occasionally bias in academic research and no actual objectivity leading to an absolute, flawless conclusion of everything? Who’d of thought?

‘No child is born in the wrong body’ I must say I tend to agree.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 10 Jan 23 5.48am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

It is so frustrating that every thread on this site is completely full of opinion, yet devoid of data or actual case studies.

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

[Link]

Respondents who experienced discrimination or were a victim of violence were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide. Access to gender-affirming medical care is associated with a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts.

[Link]

Suicidality is associated with desiring gender affirming surgery in the future, gender based victimisation and institutionalised cissexism. Interventions to increase social inclusion, reduce transphobia and enable access to gender affirming care, particularly surgical interventions, are potential areas of intervention.

[Link]

So basically it’s everyone else’s fault when a trans swings !
All of our natural beliefs and ‘opinions’ need to be altered to cater for this community.
The abuse is wrong totally but accepting it as normal, that is another one of the few choices we can still hold ( in private) anyhow.
Trans have a higher suicide rate because after about 15-20 years no matter
how lovely , jelly and ice cream, funfairs and accepted they are in life they regret their decision. Basic facts I reckon.

 

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MrWhyNot Flag 10 Jan 23 6.06am

Originally posted by Nicholas91

‘No child is born in the wrong body’ I must say I tend to agree.

I think the question should more be, with some people is their view that they are in the wrong body, one that demonstrably is shown to be consistent and very unlikely to change over time. And where that is the case, and a physical intervention is made, is the outcome post that more often a positive one. Clouded in politics now, I'd say that the answer tends to be that it should be an option and that viewing it as universally wrong or negative isn't helpful or accurate. I don't though view the more modern 'respect my pronouns' activist take of these issues as at all helpful as it blurs more lines, and creates a more ephemeral idea of 'gender is nothing, i can look male but say i'm female'. It's more like tourism than a lived reality and creates concerns with womens spaces and the like.

 

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MrWhyNot Flag 10 Jan 23 6.29am

Originally posted by Mapletree

It is so frustrating that every thread on this site is completely full of opinion, yet devoid of data or actual case studies.

Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

[Link]

Respondents who experienced discrimination or were a victim of violence were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide. Access to gender-affirming medical care is associated with a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts.

[Link]

Suicidality is associated with desiring gender affirming surgery in the future, gender based victimisation and institutionalised cissexism. Interventions to increase social inclusion, reduce transphobia and enable access to gender affirming care, particularly surgical interventions, are potential areas of intervention.

[Link]

That post is a snapshot of a perspective that says that rushing into something with fewer checks and balances is not always a universally good thing as there will always be pros and cons to that. Point being, where something becomes a political football it's not solely about the welfare of the individual anymore, or doing the right thing. It's subjective and we could look back on it differently in future.

If you look to my first post on this page, you'll see that I acknowledge that social attitudes towards trans people very likely significantly play into how they feel about themselves. Considering perception of them it would be strange if not. This can then be used to further marginalise. I pointed to a family member who is certainly happier now. People on a genuinely tough journey doing their best deserve respect and support where their view of themselves is consistent and unchanged over time, not belittlement of their state of being. I was attemmpting to draw a distinction between said journey and a more modern interpretation of a pro noun centric gender view that if anything muddies the water of understanding and turns someone elses journey into their own pitstop. I don't see support of those who need it, vs a 'what does it all mean anyway' type default as the same thing.

People have busy and full lives to lead. On a practical level it is easier to understand and empathise with those who demonstrate that their idea of themselves simply isn't going to change over time and they need help with better aligning it with the visual, than the more modern, fluid pronoun centric take where the physical doesn't even have to align with the pronouns in any way (as in not body dysmorphic), undermining the aforementioned struggles in a sense. Culturally it would be better for those people to just say that they feel especially masculine or feminine, because well.. they do. Things can only get so complex and personalised before others opt out mentally and we do not always give weight to the right stories. This is a football forum, it's often more wrecking balls from people who don't give a toss, or a need to be the loudest voice. Sometimes a pertinent point here or there that strikes a balance can make more of a positive impact going forward than people feeling that they are being asked to reconfigure their whole view of life.

Edited by MrWhyNot (10 Jan 2023 6.38am)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View georgenorman's Profile georgenorman Flag 10 Jan 23 7.22am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Why has this thread turned into a trans-nonsense thread?

 

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