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April 19 2024 9.29pm

Grenfell Madness

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 22 Jan 22 9.38am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by dreamwaverider

We have surely got to consider alternatives to cheap build high rise.
Grenfell tower is surrounded by a variety of low rise accommodation.
We can’t afford to build anything so by default they will be looking at cheapest option.
There is plenty of open land around the building. So far better solution would be 5 storey traditional build. No issues with cladding. Plenty of stairwells and modern methods of construction (mmc) will sort all heating issues etc.
but as always in this world the issue no one wants to face is population numbers. Turn Grenfell into a park. Enforce wfh and tighten the borders. All around Kensington there are immigrants living in super low cost clad hotels.
We are learning zero and now clearly changing zero.
Pathetic.

Edited by dreamwaverider (22 Jan 2022 8.20am)

Good point about high rise living. Nobody seems to be asking why do we need them in the first place.

My point about the residents pinching the fire doors was really about lack of maintenance.

Back in the sixties we built all those concrete monstrosities and architects won awards. By the eighties those same architects were defending their designs by pointing out that the councils never maintained them as they were supposed to and if the had they would be fine. I am not convinced about that but the point is well made.

Public housing should not be designed or built with the assumption that a high degree of ongoing maintenance is required for it to be safe and pleasurable to live in.

I suspect that is exactly what the designers of the single staircase tower block are now saying. It will be fine because we have safety doors and sprinklers etc. But they cannot guarantee that in the future the safety measures will be maintained or even if they are they are up to the job, the cladding was supposed to be fire proof.

Design should be based on redundancy e.g. if the sprinklers don't work or the staircase if blocked no problem there is a second staircase. If the fire doors have been nicked not good but the walls and floors are made of stuff that will not burn....

 


One more point

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 22 Jan 22 9.55am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Good point about high rise living. Nobody seems to be asking why do we need them in the first place.

My point about the residents pinching the fire doors was really about lack of maintenance.

Back in the sixties we built all those concrete monstrosities and architects won awards. By the eighties those same architects were defending their designs by pointing out that the councils never maintained them as they were supposed to and if the had they would be fine. I am not convinced about that but the point is well made.

Public housing should not be designed or built with the assumption that a high degree of ongoing maintenance is required for it to be safe and pleasurable to live in.

I suspect that is exactly what the designers of the single staircase tower block are now saying. It will be fine because we have safety doors and sprinklers etc. But they cannot guarantee that in the future the safety measures will be maintained or even if they are they are up to the job, the cladding was supposed to be fire proof.

Design should be based on redundancy e.g. if the sprinklers don't work or the staircase if blocked no problem there is a second staircase. If the fire doors have been nicked not good but the walls and floors are made of stuff that will not burn....

It's all about potential and chance. Nothing in life whether physical or emotional is 100% known. You can only cover so many angles. Then put a human in and it will fail.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 22 Jan 22 10.14am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

It's all about potential and chance. Nothing in life whether physical or emotional is 100% known. You can only cover so many angles. Then put a human in and it will fail.

Agreed however you can make assumptions about known risks.

Every week there are stories in the press about people living in dreadful conditions because the local council hasn't done maintenance so this is not an unknown risk and should be built into the design.

 


One more point

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 22 Jan 22 10.44am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Agreed however you can make assumptions about known risks.

Every week there are stories in the press about people living in dreadful conditions because the local council hasn't done maintenance so this is not an unknown risk and should be built into the design.

Buildings made from concrete and bricks are fairly maintenance free to a high degree. Age would be the reason for issues if built correctly. Mechanical and electrical services are maintainable and should be. The question is does it look 'nice' and fit in with the area. All about cosmetics which is why grenfell got covered in cladding!

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 22 Jan 22 11.08am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

High rise buildings have been considered to be attractive from the perspective of low carbon usage, preventing urban sprawl, reducing travel needs and building costs.

It may however be better to have high density medium height building.

This from Edinburgh Napier University

Our results show that density is indeed needed for a growing urban population, but height isn't. So it seems the world needs more Parises and fewer Manhattans – as much as I love New York – in the next decades."

[Link]

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 27 Jan 22 9.13am Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Buildings made from concrete and bricks are fairly maintenance free to a high degree. Age would be the reason for issues if built correctly. Mechanical and electrical services are maintainable and should be. The question is does it look 'nice' and fit in with the area. All about cosmetics which is why grenfell got covered in cladding!

True about cosmetics for the most part. I've seen wooden cladding put on low-rise buildings in recent years, in order to make it look more environmentally friendly. The wood weathered badly in the winter months and looked 5hlt fairly rapidly.

The other thing about cladding is that it (should) provides additional thermal and sound insulation. A cheap option where road/traffic noise is a problem and has additional benefits in reducing residents heating costs.

 


"The facts have changed", Rishi Sunak

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BlueJay Flag UK 27 Jan 22 11.42am

Originally posted by Badger11

Agreed however you can make assumptions about known risks.

Every week there are stories in the press about people living in dreadful conditions because the local council hasn't done maintenance so this is not an unknown risk and should be built into the design.

Exactly, it's not like they've gone to the nth degree and some amazing circumstance damages health or claims life. It's money more morals. Especially where the poor are concerns. The same was true or dodgy cladding. It was known that corners were cut and it potentially endangered those within these buildings, but the 'make hay' attitude was at the forefront until the enviable happens.

 

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