NHS workers required to be vaccinated....

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BlueJay UK 24 Jan 22 10.18am
Originally posted by HKOwen The main point I was making was that Labour are in agreement with the Govt and I would assume that the unions representing the at threat NHS workers would be all over this. Most within the NHS will have been vaccinated, and as stated they're in the business of saving lives not pointlessly putting people at additional risk, so I doubt even unions will have been particularly pleased with these hold outs. That said, taking the current situation as it is, the downside of suddenly axing tens of thousands of staff (as we pass the peak of a a more mild variant) hardly seems like a masterstroke I'd agree, so no doubt they will be inclined to defend these staff, and hold a different view to Labour.
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BlueJay

UK 24 Jan 22 10.18am

Originally posted by HKOwen

The main point I was making was that Labour are in agreement with the Govt and I would assume that the unions representing the at threat NHS workers would be all over this.

Most within the NHS will have been vaccinated, and as stated they're in the business of saving lives not pointlessly putting people at additional risk, so I doubt even unions will have been particularly pleased with these hold outs. That said, taking the current situation as it is, the downside of suddenly axing tens of thousands of staff (as we pass the peak of a a more mild variant) hardly seems like a masterstroke I'd agree, so no doubt they will be inclined to defend these staff, and hold a different view to Labour.

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Pembroke Bristol 24 Jan 22 10.34am
Originally posted by BlueJay Most within the NHS will have been vaccinated, and as stated they're in the business of saving lives not pointlessly putting people at additional risk, so I doubt even unions will have been particularly pleased with these hold outs. That said, taking the current situation as it is, the downside of suddenly axing tens of thousands of staff (as we pass the peak of a a more mild variant) hardly seems like a masterstroke I'd agree, so no doubt they will be inclined to defend these staff, and hold a different view to Labour. The Union Unite hold a different view to Labour. Like the Royal college of Nursing and surgeons they do not support mandatory vaccination.
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Pembroke

Bristol 24 Jan 22 10.34am

Originally posted by BlueJay

The Union Unite hold a different view to Labour. Like the Royal college of Nursing and surgeons they do not support mandatory vaccination.

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Pembroke Bristol 24 Jan 22 10.39am
Originally posted by Badger11 I believe that the NHS should have led by example I know people who went into hospital COIVD free and died of it there, so much for save our NHS. As soon as the vaccine became available the government should have ordered care workers and NHS to take it of fire them. We expect our police to obey the law I expect the NHS to lead by example. That said it is now too late I am not sure it makes sense to fire people as the pandemic comes to an end. It is not law ... Yet. And neither should it be. In the NHS we cannot coerce or blackmail individuals into having treatments they do not want ... Yet. In the UK you cannot force people to take any medication or treatment unless via a lawful process it is proven the individual lacks mental capacity and legal restraint (force) can then be used. Edited by Pembroke (24 Jan 2022 10.40am) Edited by Pembroke (24 Jan 2022 10.40am)
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Pembroke

Bristol 24 Jan 22 10.39am

Originally posted by Badger11

I believe that the NHS should have led by example I know people who went into hospital COIVD free and died of it there, so much for save our NHS.

As soon as the vaccine became available the government should have ordered care workers and NHS to take it of fire them. We expect our police to obey the law I expect the NHS to lead by example.

That said it is now too late I am not sure it makes sense to fire people as the pandemic comes to an end.

It is not law ... Yet. And neither should it be.

In the NHS we cannot coerce or blackmail individuals into having treatments they do not want ... Yet.

In the UK you cannot force people to take any medication or treatment unless via a lawful process it is proven the individual lacks mental capacity and legal restraint (force) can then be used.

Edited by Pembroke (24 Jan 2022 10.40am)

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Badger11 Beckenham 24 Jan 22 10.52am
Originally posted by Pembroke It is not law ... Yet. And neither should it be. In the NHS we cannot coerce or blackmail individuals into having treatments they do not want ... Yet. In the UK you cannot force people to take any medication or treatment unless via a lawful process it is proven the individual lacks mental capacity and legal restraint (force) can then be used. Edited by Pembroke (24 Jan 2022 10.40am) Edited by Pembroke (24 Jan 2022 10.40am) I think this is a lesson to be learned for the next time we have a pandemic, like I said I think it is too late now. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 24 Jan 22 10.52am

Originally posted by Pembroke

It is not law ... Yet. And neither should it be.

In the NHS we cannot coerce or blackmail individuals into having treatments they do not want ... Yet.

In the UK you cannot force people to take any medication or treatment unless via a lawful process it is proven the individual lacks mental capacity and legal restraint (force) can then be used.

Edited by Pembroke (24 Jan 2022 10.40am)

I think this is a lesson to be learned for the next time we have a pandemic, like I said I think it is too late now.

One more point

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Stirlingsays 24 Jan 22 11.08am
Originally posted by Badger11 I believe that the NHS should have led by example I know people who went into hospital COIVD free and died of it there, so much for save our NHS. As soon as the vaccine became available the government should have ordered care workers and NHS to take it of fire them. We expect our police to obey the law I expect the NHS to lead by example. That said it is now too late I am not sure it makes sense to fire people as the pandemic comes to an end. Unless it was a condition of their original employment that's just wrong in my view. In your first paragraph you seem to be implying that unvaccinated staff are more likely to infect people than vaccinated. Yet does this really stand up? I was told months ago on here that vaccination reduced transmission....yet those claims only came from the drug companies themselves. Indeed, this idea that being vaccinated means you aren't going to catch the virus or are at lesser risk of transmitting it is a dangerous one for the vulnerable in my opinion. Firstly it's pretty much nailed on that NHS front line staff would have caught Covid many times before the vaccine turned up....So they had antibodies that would be continually topped up. Secondly vaccination has been shown to be no safeguard against transmission and only works at reducing symptoms for the individual.....well in the majority of cases. Any policy that sacks highly qualified staff over body autonomy that wasn't a condition of their original employment isn't only wrong but it also acts as an unnecessary barrier in professions which we desperately need more entering not less. Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Jan 2022 11.48am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

24 Jan 22 11.08am

Originally posted by Badger11

I believe that the NHS should have led by example I know people who went into hospital COIVD free and died of it there, so much for save our NHS.

As soon as the vaccine became available the government should have ordered care workers and NHS to take it of fire them. We expect our police to obey the law I expect the NHS to lead by example.

That said it is now too late I am not sure it makes sense to fire people as the pandemic comes to an end.

Unless it was a condition of their original employment that's just wrong in my view.

In your first paragraph you seem to be implying that unvaccinated staff are more likely to infect people than vaccinated. Yet does this really stand up? I was told months ago on here that vaccination reduced transmission....yet those claims only came from the drug companies themselves. Indeed, this idea that being vaccinated means you aren't going to catch the virus or are at lesser risk of transmitting it is a dangerous one for the vulnerable in my opinion.

Firstly it's pretty much nailed on that NHS front line staff would have caught Covid many times before the vaccine turned up....So they had antibodies that would be continually topped up. Secondly vaccination has been shown to be no safeguard against transmission and only works at reducing symptoms for the individual.....well in the majority of cases.

Any policy that sacks highly qualified staff over body autonomy that wasn't a condition of their original employment isn't only wrong but it also acts as an unnecessary barrier in professions which we desperately need more entering not less.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Jan 2022 11.48am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Pembroke Bristol 24 Jan 22 11.47am
Originally posted by Badger11 I think this is a lesson to be learned for the next time we have a pandemic, like I said I think it is too late now. What lesson? This mandate will only apply in England, not Northern Ireland or Scotland? The virus and science there must be different.
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Pembroke

Bristol 24 Jan 22 11.47am

Originally posted by Badger11

I think this is a lesson to be learned for the next time we have a pandemic, like I said I think it is too late now.

What lesson?

This mandate will only apply in England, not Northern Ireland or Scotland?

The virus and science there must be different.

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BlueJay UK 24 Jan 22 12.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Quote In your first paragraph you seem to be implying that unvaccinated staff are more likely to infect people than vaccinated. Yet does this really stand up? I was told months ago on here that vaccination reduced transmission....yet those claims only came from the drug companies themselves. Indeed, this idea that being vaccinated means you aren't going to catch the virus or are at lesser risk of transmitting it is a dangerous one for the vulnerable in my opinion. Only this isn't really an issue of just months. The vaccine was significantly more effective against both infection and also transmission than it is against Omicron (which thankfully is a milder virus). People can choose not to believe this, but there's certainly broad enough data from various sources across the board to display that. As such those staff who didn't get vaccinated certainly put patients at unnecessary risk when their health was often least prepared for additional challenges (on account that they were in hospital already). Quote Firstly it's pretty much nailed on that NHS front line staff would have caught Covid many times before the vaccine turned up....So they had antibodies that would be continually topped up. Secondly vaccination has been shown to be no safeguard against transmission and only works at reducing symptoms for the individual.....well in the majority of cases. Any policy that sacks highly qualified staff over body autonomy that wasn't a condition of their original employment isn't only wrong but it also acts as an unnecessary barrier in professions which we desperately need more entering not less. Certainly I would say with Omicron that is more true than not, hence why at this stage in the game it likely is pointless removing much needed people from the workforce. This is something that if they wanted to do they shouldn't made clear at the time, rather than as a token gesture when it's too late to make much of a difference anyway. Going forward I'd say that the terms of employment point is certainly fair enough, so that people are aware of what might be asked of them. It's unlikely that such terms would be in existing contracts of course, due to the very idea of a pandemic suddenly hitting not being taken seriously by most.
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BlueJay

UK 24 Jan 22 12.37pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Quote

Only this isn't really an issue of just months. The vaccine was significantly more effective against both infection and also transmission than it is against Omicron (which thankfully is a milder virus). People can choose not to believe this, but there's certainly broad enough data from various sources across the board to display that. As such those staff who didn't get vaccinated certainly put patients at unnecessary risk when their health was often least prepared for additional challenges (on account that they were in hospital already).

Quote

Firstly it's pretty much nailed on that NHS front line staff would have caught Covid many times before the vaccine turned up....So they had antibodies that would be continually topped up. Secondly vaccination has been shown to be no safeguard against transmission and only works at reducing symptoms for the individual.....well in the majority of cases.

Certainly I would say with Omicron that is more true than not, hence why at this stage in the game it likely is pointless removing much needed people from the workforce. This is something that if they wanted to do they shouldn't made clear at the time, rather than as a token gesture when it's too late to make much of a difference anyway.

Going forward I'd say that the terms of employment point is certainly fair enough, so that people are aware of what might be asked of them. It's unlikely that such terms would be in existing contracts of course, due to the very idea of a pandemic suddenly hitting not being taken seriously by most.

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Stirlingsays 24 Jan 22 1.27pm
Originally posted by BlueJay Only this isn't really an issue of just months. The vaccine was significantly more effective against both infection and also transmission than it is against Omicron (which thankfully is a milder virus). People can choose not to believe this, but there's certainly broad enough data from various sources across the board to display that. As such those staff who didn't get vaccinated certainly put patients at unnecessary risk when their health was often least prepared for additional challenges (on account that they were in hospital already). Certainly I would say with Omicron that is more true than not, hence why at this stage in the game it likely is pointless removing much needed people from the workforce. This is something that if they wanted to do they shouldn't made clear at the time, rather than as a token gesture when it's too late to make much of a difference anyway. Going forward I'd say that the terms of employment point is certainly fair enough, so that people are aware of what might be asked of them. It's unlikely that such terms would be in existing contracts of course, due to the very idea of a pandemic suddenly hitting not being taken seriously by most. Personally I haven't seen any stats on reduced transmission from any other source than the drug companies....In the one case I know of independent medics looking into all these claims getting the general data from Pfizer hasn't been straight forward and required the Judge to set far more realistic time limits for disclosure.....I suspect that we won't know the independent data on all of the claims for some time....perhaps a year or two. Personally I don't agree with the contention that staff who didn't get vaccinated were putting patients at higher risk as it isn't proven. As I say they would have natural immunity which is proven stronger than the vaccine itself....and none of the vaccines stop transmission. So that's my position on that. While I call the vaccines successful in their most important job they certainly haven't been a sliver bullet as we all had hoped. What I regard as sensible would be daily testing of all staff, vaccinated or not before they work with those with the elderly or weak immuned systems.......We needed more workers I think. Patients were prepared to be treated by staff before the vaccines and no doubt many of them clapped for them during that cringe fest....but now some are willing to turn coat on them over what I regard as pretty doubtful arguments......As we all know these staff will all be hired back one way or another....it's a nonsense. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

24 Jan 22 1.27pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Personally I haven't seen any stats on reduced transmission from any other source than the drug companies....In the one case I know of independent medics looking into all these claims getting the general data from Pfizer hasn't been straight forward and required the Judge to set far more realistic time limits for disclosure.....I suspect that we won't know the independent data on all of the claims for some time....perhaps a year or two.

Personally I don't agree with the contention that staff who didn't get vaccinated were putting patients at higher risk as it isn't proven. As I say they would have natural immunity which is proven stronger than the vaccine itself....and none of the vaccines stop transmission. So that's my position on that.

While I call the vaccines successful in their most important job they certainly haven't been a sliver bullet as we all had hoped.

What I regard as sensible would be daily testing of all staff, vaccinated or not before they work with those with the elderly or weak immuned systems.......We needed more workers I think.

Patients were prepared to be treated by staff before the vaccines and no doubt many of them clapped for them during that cringe fest....but now some are willing to turn coat on them over what I regard as pretty doubtful arguments......As we all know these staff will all be hired back one way or another....it's a nonsense.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Pembroke Bristol 24 Jan 22 1.29pm
Originally posted by BlueJay Going forward I'd say that the terms of employment point is certainly fair enough, so that people are aware of what might be asked of them. It's unlikely that such terms would be in existing contracts of course, due to the very idea of a pandemic suddenly hitting not being taken seriously by most. Losing personal freedom, body autonomy and informed consent will not be in existing contracts.
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Pembroke

Bristol 24 Jan 22 1.29pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Losing personal freedom, body autonomy and informed consent will not be in existing contracts.

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becky over the moon 24 Jan 22 4.01pm
Originally posted by Badger11 I believe that the NHS should have led by example I know people who went into hospital COIVD free and died of it there, so much for save our NHS. As soon as the vaccine became available the government should have ordered care workers and NHS to take it of fire them. We expect our police to obey the law I expect the NHS to lead by example. That said it is now too late I am not sure it makes sense to fire people as the pandemic comes to an end. Did the people who caught Covid whilst in hospital catch it from the NHS staff or from other patients? Has there been research on this? If the government was to enforce care workers/NHS workers to be vaccinated, do they not then not also have to accept a liability/ responsibility for any medical problems arising in those staff in the future from being forced to accept a product which was not/is not/will not be classed as fully tested until 2023? A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 24 Jan 22 4.01pm

Originally posted by Badger11

I believe that the NHS should have led by example I know people who went into hospital COIVD free and died of it there, so much for save our NHS.

As soon as the vaccine became available the government should have ordered care workers and NHS to take it of fire them. We expect our police to obey the law I expect the NHS to lead by example.

That said it is now too late I am not sure it makes sense to fire people as the pandemic comes to an end.

Did the people who caught Covid whilst in hospital catch it from the NHS staff or from other patients? Has there been research on this?

If the government was to enforce care workers/NHS workers to be vaccinated, do they not then not also have to accept a liability/ responsibility for any medical problems arising in those staff in the future from being forced to accept a product which was not/is not/will not be classed as fully tested until 2023?

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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Stirlingsays 24 Jan 22 4.06pm
Originally posted by becky Did the people who caught Covid whilst in hospital catch it from the NHS staff or from other patients? Has there been research on this? If the government was to enforce care workers/NHS workers to be vaccinated, do they not then not also have to accept a liability/ responsibility for any medical problems arising in those staff in the future from being forced to accept a product which was not/is not/will not be classed as fully tested until 2023? That's a good point. Should anyone really be mandated....forced to accept a product into their body that is liability exempt. Consent without coercion should have always been the policy. Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Jan 2022 4.10pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

24 Jan 22 4.06pm

Originally posted by becky

Did the people who caught Covid whilst in hospital catch it from the NHS staff or from other patients? Has there been research on this?

That's a good point.

Should anyone really be mandated....forced to accept a product into their body that is liability exempt.

Consent without coercion should have always been the policy.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Jan 2022 4.10pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Pembroke Bristol 24 Jan 22 4.52pm
Originally posted by becky Did the people who caught Covid whilst in hospital catch it from the NHS staff or from other patients? ? People in the care sector and the NHS generally catch covid from people who are ill. NHS staff who are ill are not allowed to work.
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Pembroke

Bristol 24 Jan 22 4.52pm

Originally posted by becky

Did the people who caught Covid whilst in hospital catch it from the NHS staff or from other patients?
?

People in the care sector and the NHS generally catch covid from people who are ill.

NHS staff who are ill are not allowed to work.

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