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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 9.19am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Oooooh! Mr self important strikes again. Can you feel that hook tugging at your lip? Your faith and loyalty to Brussels is nauseating. Clearly you have no faith in Britain, which is hardly as a surprise since you are happy to see its culture and heritage erased. I have no particular "faith and loyalty" to Brussels! I just believe that, on balance, the benefits of us being a member of the EU outweigh the negatives. It isn't perfect and needs reform, but it serves a purpose which we can use. I have an enormous faith in Britain and in our capacity to adapt, innovate and survive. That's especially apparent among our young people, who deserve more than they are getting from the likes of you, with your regressive approach and eyes that only look backwards. Our culture is continually developing whilst our heritage is preserved and honoured, although we must also be prepared to re-evaluate it with the benefit of hindsight. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 9.19am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Oooooh! Mr self important strikes again.

Can you feel that hook tugging at your lip?

Your faith and loyalty to Brussels is nauseating. Clearly you have no faith in Britain, which is hardly as a surprise since you are happy to see its culture and heritage erased.

I have no particular "faith and loyalty" to Brussels! I just believe that, on balance, the benefits of us being a member of the EU outweigh the negatives. It isn't perfect and needs reform, but it serves a purpose which we can use.

I have an enormous faith in Britain and in our capacity to adapt, innovate and survive. That's especially apparent among our young people, who deserve more than they are getting from the likes of you, with your regressive approach and eyes that only look backwards. Our culture is continually developing whilst our heritage is preserved and honoured, although we must also be prepared to re-evaluate it with the benefit of hindsight.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 9.37am
Originally posted by georgenorman You can waffle as much as you like, but it is clear that if you can't elect the people that make the laws that govern you, then you don't live in a democracy. How do MEPs and their parties implement their manifestos? What is point of electing them? We largely voted for UKIP and the Brexit Party, how do the arrangements you describe allow them to implement their policies? Edited by georgenorman (23 Apr 2022 10.10pm) We live in the UK. That's where our democracy exists. The EU is a union of sovereign states. It isn't, and in my opinion never will be, an organisation which governs directly. We elect our representatives to the British Parliament. That's the only place where decisions are made that affect us. That they decided to delegate some, with appropriate over-sight, to the EU, was still a democratic decision. If you want UKIP and/or the Brexit Party to have policies implemented, then you first need to have them win enough seats in the British Parliament. The EU Parliament is part of the over-sight. As neither party ever won any seats in the British Parliament, your argument is a false one. Cameron only bowed to the threat of that happening to preserve the Tory Party. Securing a few seats in the EU Parliament, via votes cast by committed activists in a very low turn-out, is not the same thing at all. Even if they commanded a majority in the EU Parliament, which they clearly didn't, they would not have been able to "implement a manifesto". All they could do was make a lot of noise. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 9.37am

Originally posted by georgenorman

You can waffle as much as you like, but it is clear that if you can't elect the people that make the laws that govern you, then you don't live in a democracy.
How do MEPs and their parties implement their manifestos? What is point of electing them? We largely voted for UKIP and the Brexit Party, how do the arrangements you describe allow them to implement their policies?

Edited by georgenorman (23 Apr 2022 10.10pm)

We live in the UK. That's where our democracy exists. The EU is a union of sovereign states. It isn't, and in my opinion never will be, an organisation which governs directly.

We elect our representatives to the British Parliament. That's the only place where decisions are made that affect us. That they decided to delegate some, with appropriate over-sight, to the EU, was still a democratic decision.

If you want UKIP and/or the Brexit Party to have policies implemented, then you first need to have them win enough seats in the British Parliament. The EU Parliament is part of the over-sight.

As neither party ever won any seats in the British Parliament, your argument is a false one. Cameron only bowed to the threat of that happening to preserve the Tory Party. Securing a few seats in the EU Parliament, via votes cast by committed activists in a very low turn-out, is not the same thing at all. Even if they commanded a majority in the EU Parliament, which they clearly didn't, they would not have been able to "implement a manifesto". All they could do was make a lot of noise.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Hrolf The Ganger 24 Apr 22 10.14am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I have no particular "faith and loyalty" to Brussels! I just believe that, on balance, the benefits of us being a member of the EU outweigh the negatives. It isn't perfect and needs reform, but it serves a purpose which we can use. I have an enormous faith in Britain and in our capacity to adapt, innovate and survive. That's especially apparent among our young people, who deserve more than they are getting from the likes of you, with your regressive approach and eyes that only look backwards. Our culture is continually developing whilst our heritage is preserved and honoured, although we must also be prepared to re-evaluate it with the benefit of hindsight. Interesting that you say that, since I am the only one looking to protect the future of Britain. You, by contrast, are a turkey voting for Christmas. Your adaptation is actually obliteration. The EU does not represent the best interests of Britain. It represents the best interests of itself, which in reality usually means Germany and France.
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Hrolf The Ganger

24 Apr 22 10.14am

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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have an enormous faith in Britain and in our capacity to adapt, innovate and survive. That's especially apparent among our young people, who deserve more than they are getting from the likes of you, with your regressive approach and eyes that only look backwards. Our culture is continually developing whilst our heritage is preserved and honoured, although we must also be prepared to re-evaluate it with the benefit of hindsight.

Interesting that you say that, since I am the only one looking to protect the future of Britain.
You, by contrast, are a turkey voting for Christmas. Your adaptation is actually obliteration.

The EU does not represent the best interests of Britain. It represents the best interests of itself, which in reality usually means Germany and France.

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georgenorman 24 Apr 22 10.31am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle We live in the UK. That's where our democracy exists. The EU is a union of sovereign states. It isn't, and in my opinion never will be, an organisation which governs directly. We elect our representatives to the British Parliament. That's the only place where decisions are made that affect us. That they decided to delegate some, with appropriate over-sight, to the EU, was still a democratic decision. If you want UKIP and/or the Brexit Party to have policies implemented, then you first need to have them win enough seats in the British Parliament. The EU Parliament is part of the over-sight. As neither party ever won any seats in the British Parliament, your argument is a false one. Cameron only bowed to the threat of that happening to preserve the Tory Party. Securing a few seats in the EU Parliament, via votes cast by committed activists in a very low turn-out, is not the same thing at all. Even if they commanded a majority in the EU Parliament, which they clearly didn't, they would not have been able to "implement a manifesto". All they could do was make a lot of noise. So our democracy exists in the UK but not in the EU? So you seem to accept that the EU is not democratic? While we were in the EU, the British parliament was of course not the only place where decisions were made that affect us, laws that affected us were made by unelected EU Commissioners. Even if UKIP or the Brexit party (or any other party for that matter) won every UK seat in the EU �parliament� they would have no way to implement their manifestos as MEPs and their parties have no power to propose law. Yes, as you say, all they could do is �make a lot of noise� � and you seem to think that is somehow democratic!
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georgenorman

24 Apr 22 10.31am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

We live in the UK. That's where our democracy exists. The EU is a union of sovereign states. It isn't, and in my opinion never will be, an organisation which governs directly.

If you want UKIP and/or the Brexit Party to have policies implemented, then you first need to have them win enough seats in the British Parliament. The EU Parliament is part of the over-sight.

So our democracy exists in the UK but not in the EU? So you seem to accept that the EU is not democratic? While we were in the EU, the British parliament was of course not the only place where decisions were made that affect us, laws that affected us were made by unelected EU Commissioners. Even if UKIP or the Brexit party (or any other party for that matter) won every UK seat in the EU �parliament� they would have no way to implement their manifestos as MEPs and their parties have no power to propose law. Yes, as you say, all they could do is �make a lot of noise� � and you seem to think that is somehow democratic!

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 12.49pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Interesting that you say that, since I am the only one looking to protect the future of Britain. You, by contrast, are a turkey voting for Christmas. Your adaptation is actually obliteration. The EU does not represent the best interests of Britain. It represents the best interests of itself, which in reality usually means Germany and France. That's just your usual one eyed bs. You are only looking to protect your own vision of the future of Britain. Not what is in the best interests of all its citizens. As you confirm with your stupidity over my attitude. The EU isn't there to represent the best interests of Britain. Its purpose is to look after the mutual interests of its members. We need to fight our own corner and use the benefits when they suit us, and work around the negatives if they don't. It's a question of balance. Not that being in is 100% good, and being out 100% bad. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 12.49pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Interesting that you say that, since I am the only one looking to protect the future of Britain.
You, by contrast, are a turkey voting for Christmas. Your adaptation is actually obliteration.

The EU does not represent the best interests of Britain. It represents the best interests of itself, which in reality usually means Germany and France.

That's just your usual one eyed bs. You are only looking to protect your own vision of the future of Britain. Not what is in the best interests of all its citizens. As you confirm with your stupidity over my attitude.

The EU isn't there to represent the best interests of Britain. Its purpose is to look after the mutual interests of its members. We need to fight our own corner and use the benefits when they suit us, and work around the negatives if they don't. It's a question of balance. Not that being in is 100% good, and being out 100% bad.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 12.57pm
Originally posted by georgenorman So our democracy exists in the UK but not in the EU? So you seem to accept that the EU is not democratic? While we were in the EU, the British parliament was of course not the only place where decisions were made that affect us, laws that affected us were made by unelected EU Commissioners. Even if UKIP or the Brexit party (or any other party for that matter) won every UK seat in the EU �parliament� they would have no way to implement their manifestos as MEPs and their parties have no power to propose law. Yes, as you say, all they could do is �make a lot of noise� � and you seem to think that is somehow democratic! The EU is, necessarily, a different kind of democratic institution as it has to work through and with its members. No law has ever been made by an EU Commissioner! That is a complete misunderstanding of the process, albeit one that is routinely tossed about by the Eurosceptics. Laws are only passed when approved by the Council and Parliament, enacted into UK law, or via powers delegated by the UK Parliament. Should UKIP/Brexit Party have won sufficient seats in the EU Parliament they could have refused to approve any law and then dissolved the Commission via a vote of no confidence. They could then have installed a new Commission to work with them and implement their agenda. The power exists. It's that the people of Europe don't, as a whole, agree with you. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 12.57pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

The EU is, necessarily, a different kind of democratic institution as it has to work through and with its members. No law has ever been made by an EU Commissioner! That is a complete misunderstanding of the process, albeit one that is routinely tossed about by the Eurosceptics. Laws are only passed when approved by the Council and Parliament, enacted into UK law, or via powers delegated by the UK Parliament. Should UKIP/Brexit Party have won sufficient seats in the EU Parliament they could have refused to approve any law and then dissolved the Commission via a vote of no confidence. They could then have installed a new Commission to work with them and implement their agenda.

The power exists. It's that the people of Europe don't, as a whole, agree with you.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 1.09pm
Originally posted by HKOwen So referendums are not the way to decide of EU membership in the view of some on here. That is if the result is not what you like. I have seen no mention on here of the 1975 Labour referendum on membership as being defective because such decisions should be left to Parliament. I suppose to a high degree it depends on whether you want your elected representatives to do what you want or what their political affiliation and personal ambition directs. IMHO many of the best MPs on both sides have never taken senior positions in Govt in great part to preserve their ability to vote as their constituents want. The 1975 Labour Referendum was consultative. My view at the time was it was unnecessary, and a serious break from the way we govern, which could lead to problems down the road. I don't want our MPs to do either of your choices. Neither are their mandate. Their job is to collectively decide what is in the country's best interests, ignoring what any individual, or group, wants, or what their personal ambition directs. In so doing, each member will speak up for the interests of their constituency, which may carry weight when they vote. It's a sad fact that the whipping system, and the threat of deselection, has emasculated our MP's ability to perform their duties without shackles and kept good men, and women, on the back benches. Reform is needed. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 24 Apr 22 1.09pm

Originally posted by HKOwen

So referendums are not the way to decide of EU membership in the view of some on here.

That is if the result is not what you like.

I have seen no mention on here of the 1975 Labour referendum on membership as being defective because such decisions should be left to Parliament.

I suppose to a high degree it depends on whether you want your elected representatives to do what you want or what their political affiliation and personal ambition directs.

IMHO many of the best MPs on both sides have never taken senior positions in Govt in great part to preserve their ability to vote as their constituents want.

The 1975 Labour Referendum was consultative. My view at the time was it was unnecessary, and a serious break from the way we govern, which could lead to problems down the road.

I don't want our MPs to do either of your choices. Neither are their mandate. Their job is to collectively decide what is in the country's best interests, ignoring what any individual, or group,
wants, or what their personal ambition directs. In so doing, each member will speak up for the interests of their constituency, which may carry weight when they vote.

It's a sad fact that the whipping system, and the threat of deselection, has emasculated our MP's ability to perform their duties without shackles and kept good men, and women, on the back benches. Reform is needed.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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georgenorman 24 Apr 22 1.19pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle The EU is, necessarily, a different kind of democratic institution as it has to work through and with its members. No law has ever been made by an EU Commissioner! That is a complete misunderstanding of the process, albeit one that is routinely tossed about by the Eurosceptics. Laws are only passed when approved by the Council and Parliament, enacted into UK law, or via powers delegated by the UK Parliament. Should UKIP/Brexit Party have won sufficient seats in the EU Parliament they could have refused to approve any law and then dissolved the Commission via a vote of no confidence. They could then have installed a new Commission to work with them and implement their agenda. The power exists. It's that the people of Europe don't, as a whole, agree with you. It is a certainly a different kind of democratic institution in that it is not democratic. The EU Commission is the sole source of EU law, the EU sham-parliament cannot propose or draft laws. It can vote against some laws put forward by the unelected commission, but in some budgetary and foreign policy matters it cannot even do that. In the last EU election, the Brexit Party won the most votes and became the largest single national party in the European Parliament but of course had no means of implementing their policies. The EU Parliament can propose a vote of no confidence in the unelected Commission but they certainly can�t, as you say, �install a new Commission� � they do not have the power to do that. The Commission is appointed by the equally unelected Council. As for the people of Europe not agreeing with me, they have not been given the opportunity of voicing an opinion as we were. You want to be in an undemocratic EU � fine - the majority who voted in the democratic referendum decided otherwise.
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georgenorman

24 Apr 22 1.19pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The power exists. It's that the people of Europe don't, as a whole, agree with you.

It is a certainly a different kind of democratic institution in that it is not democratic.
The EU Commission is the sole source of EU law, the EU sham-parliament cannot propose or draft laws. It can vote against some laws put forward by the unelected commission, but in some budgetary and foreign policy matters it cannot even do that.
In the last EU election, the Brexit Party won the most votes and became the largest single national party in the European Parliament but of course had no means of implementing their policies.
The EU Parliament can propose a vote of no confidence in the unelected Commission but they certainly can�t, as you say, �install a new Commission� � they do not have the power to do that. The Commission is appointed by the equally unelected Council.
As for the people of Europe not agreeing with me, they have not been given the opportunity of voicing an opinion as we were.
You want to be in an undemocratic EU � fine - the majority who voted in the democratic referendum decided otherwise.

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Hrolf The Ganger 24 Apr 22 1.21pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle That's just your usual one eyed bs. You are only looking to protect your own vision of the future of Britain. Not what is in the best interests of all its citizens. As you confirm with your stupidity over my attitude. The EU isn't there to represent the best interests of Britain. Its purpose is to look after the mutual interests of its members. We need to fight our own corner and use the benefits when they suit us, and work around the negatives if they don't. It's a question of balance. Not that being in is 100% good, and being out 100% bad. Look how well that went. The benefits were so obvious that the majority voted to leave, despite a huge sum spent on getting people to remain. My personal vision of Britain is to retain the heritage that has been here for thousands of years. That is what the majority of people would like to do in any country. Only a minority like you are happy to give it all up for 'progress'. Your progress is actually degradation.
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Hrolf The Ganger

24 Apr 22 1.21pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The EU isn't there to represent the best interests of Britain. Its purpose is to look after the mutual interests of its members. We need to fight our own corner and use the benefits when they suit us, and work around the negatives if they don't. It's a question of balance. Not that being in is 100% good, and being out 100% bad.

Look how well that went. The benefits were so obvious that the majority voted to leave, despite a huge sum spent on getting people to remain.
My personal vision of Britain is to retain the heritage that has been here for thousands of years.
That is what the majority of people would like to do in any country. Only a minority like you are happy to give it all up for 'progress'.
Your progress is actually degradation.

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Jimenez SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 24 Apr 22 2.57pm
I'd love to see Le Pen win if for no other reason than seeing the left explode in Trumpesque indignation.... Pro USA & Israel
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Jimenez

SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 24 Apr 22 2.57pm

I'd love to see Le Pen win if for no other reason than seeing the left explode in Trumpesque indignation....

Pro USA & Israel

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 Apr 22 3.03pm
Originally posted by Jimenez I'd love to see Le Pen win if for no other reason than seeing the left explode in Trumpesque indignation.... Plus, she's strangely alluring. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 Apr 22 3.03pm

Originally posted by Jimenez

I'd love to see Le Pen win if for no other reason than seeing the left explode in Trumpesque indignation....

Plus, she's strangely alluring.

Red and Blue Army!

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Matov 24 Apr 22 5.19pm
Seeing claims that Le Pen is winning big in some of the French overseas territories. Places with big non-white majorities. Only explanation being offered so far is that they have all been very anti-vax, with riots and so on, which could explain why they have turned on Macron in the way they have. Still expecting Macron to win it but it might be an interesting night. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

24 Apr 22 5.19pm

Seeing claims that Le Pen is winning big in some of the French overseas territories. Places with big non-white majorities. Only explanation being offered so far is that they have all been very anti-vax, with riots and so on, which could explain why they have turned on Macron in the way they have.

Still expecting Macron to win it but it might be an interesting night.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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