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March 29 2024 11.13am

Sex Crimes: Why is the legal system failing

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 03 Feb 23 4.50pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

I am genuinely interested in this topic, if you want to talk about Mason Greenwood please go to that thread.

Last year I was on a jury trying a sexual assault case we found him not guilty. Even today I am still uneasy about it, it was the right decision under the law however most of us felt that "something" had happened as opposed to him being innocent.

There are shockingly low numbers of convictions which understandably women's rights groups are justly upset about.

But what do we do about it.

In the case I was on the judge was a very kindly man he made sure the victim and other witnesses were comfortable and understood the process. The victim gave evidence from behind a curtain and neither prosecution or defence lawyers raised their voices in fact there was no bullying, histrionics or courtroom antics that you see in the movies.

So as a man it's hard to see what more could be done in terms of the trial process to ensure that the victim has their day in court and isn't intimidated.

During the trial we were told that the victim has been interviewed by a female police detective who was specially trained in these cases and she gave evidence. So it looks like the police side of this went as well as could be expected.

So I come back to my point what more can be done. I believe in some countries they have special rape courts (the law is still the same) it's the environment that is special e.g. mainly female court staff. I don't have a problem with that if it works.

One option is to say "The victim must be believed" well sorry I don't accept that because then you have a 2 tier legal system where extra weight is added to a victim's evidence depending on the crime.

The only sensible thought I have had so far is actually what that person is charged with.

In the case above it wasn't just sexual assault the charge specifically and I do mean specifically details what he was alleged to have done. The judge told us to find him guilty we had to accept that he did every thing described. Well none of us (7 women 5 men) believed one of the actions it was just nonsense.

However if the charge had simply been "sexual assault by touching this person in a sexual manner without their consent" (in other words leaving the specifics to the evidence) he might have been found guilty as some of us did feel that something had happened.

So apart from re framing the charges I struggle to see what more can be done.

Your thoughts

 


One more point

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View thegreatlardino's Profile thegreatlardino Flag crawley/selsey 03 Feb 23 5.19pm Send a Private Message to thegreatlardino Add thegreatlardino as a friend

I think the main issue is one persons word against another, especially with a domestic / relationship type allegation. Why would the victim want to put theirself through the confrontational court process, especially if the offender is there across the court from you, knowing that their life history is potentially going to be put out in public, who they slept with when they were 17, that they liked rough sex etc etc...
I dont think there is an easy answer to this, there have been well documentated occasions in the past where the "victim" cried wolf as their relationship failed and the "offender" was dragged through court.

 


They're justified, and they're ancient
And they drive an ice cream van

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View EverybodyDannsNow's Profile EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 03 Feb 23 5.25pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend


It’s really interesting you have some first hand experience in a case like this - thanks for sharing it.

I think the ‘why’ is quite explainable; generally a crime which takes place behind closed doors, without witnesses, one word vs another - anything is difficult to prove in those circumstances.

You then add that alcohol/drugs are often involved, and the load of grey around the nature of sex and the things that permits, and it’s a nightmare from a legal point of view.

In all honesty, I don’t know the solution.

I’ve seen these cases pursued with more success in a civil claim rather than a criminal one, as the burden of proof required is less, but that doesn’t feel like a solution which could scale up.

It’s an absolute minefield and I hope someone smarter can me can come up with something, because clearly the current system is not working.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 03 Feb 23 5.50pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by thegreatlardino

I think the main issue is one persons word against another, especially with a domestic / relationship type allegation. Why would the victim want to put theirself through the confrontational court process, especially if the offender is there across the court from you, knowing that their life history is potentially going to be put out in public, who they slept with when they were 17, that they liked rough sex etc etc...
I dont think there is an easy answer to this, there have been well documentated occasions in the past where the "victim" cried wolf as their relationship failed and the "offender" was dragged through court.

I think that is an excellent point. I am not interested in someones sex life they could be a swinger for all I care what matters is the evidence as related to the specific incident.

I think too often judges allow in a victims past sexual history when it's relevance is tenuous to say the least other than to blacken that person's character or as you say frighten them off from going forward with the case.

Didn't this happen with a footballer? Found guilty but on appeal allowed a re-trial as a female judge allowed in the victims sexual history.

 


One more point

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 03 Feb 23 5.56pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Not strictly on point because it can apply in any criminal case.

At the end of the defendants phase of the trial his lawyer read to the court his previous good behaviour and character references from 3 people.

It's a standard thing in many different trials but why? As I said in my post above I am only interested in evidence that relates to the crime, a letter from somebody who wasn't there but says he's a good bloke, so what?

I don't think any of the jury paid the slightest heed to the good character references. Plenty of people and I include myself have got drunk and done something out of character that family and friends would never have believed.

 


One more point

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 03 Feb 23 6.01pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

It's a very difficult one.

In my mind I would not be surprised if there are a staggering amount of cases where either:

1. The accuser is completely lying, exaggerating or misrepresenting for a variety of motives (financial/attention/vindictive/revenge etc.)

2. You know the defendant is guilty, just observation of their general being would tell you they did, however getting sufficient evidence/reasoning for prosecution is extremely difficult.

Not having sufficient insight I could look very stupid in saying it but sometimes does the technicality and complexity of the law completely negate common sense etc? I'd imagine that might be the gripe but if so how to fix it? A far, far greater mind than mine I would suggest.

I can only imagine how heartbreaking it might be for someone to be either wrongly convicted or not see justice for a crime against them.

Edited by Nicholas91 (03 Feb 2023 6.02pm)

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 05 Feb 23 9.47am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

It's a very difficult one.

In my mind I would not be surprised if there are a staggering amount of cases where either:

1. The accuser is completely lying, exaggerating or misrepresenting for a variety of motives (financial/attention/vindictive/revenge etc.)

2. You know the defendant is guilty, just observation of their general being would tell you they did, however getting sufficient evidence/reasoning for prosecution is extremely difficult.

Not having sufficient insight I could look very stupid in saying it but sometimes does the technicality and complexity of the law completely negate common sense etc? I'd imagine that might be the gripe but if so how to fix it? A far, far greater mind than mine I would suggest.

I can only imagine how heartbreaking it might be for someone to be either wrongly convicted or not see justice for a crime against them.

Edited by Nicholas91 (03 Feb 2023 6.02pm)

The question is what amount get correct convictions ? As a % I mean.
I suppose we will never know the answer but I prefer the law now than back in the day.
We burn you, if it heals you’re a witch, if it doesn’t heal you’re a witch. Then you’re burnt or hanged. Seems slightly unfair

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 05 Feb 23 9.58am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

So far there seems to be very few suggestions which I think illustrates the point what can be done.

A lot of sympathy for the genuine victims but a lack of ideas. I guess if it was easy the politicians would have solved it by now.

 


One more point

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View becky's Profile becky Flag over the moon 05 Feb 23 5.07pm Send a Private Message to becky Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add becky as a friend

Literally, the only solution would be a written consent form with various boxes to be ticked as to precisely what is being consented to (straight sex, anal, bondage etc. etc) signed by both parties before or during foreplay.

Would put rather a damper on the whole business in my opinion,but it would solve the problem.

 


A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View eaglesdare's Profile eaglesdare Flag 05 Feb 23 6.04pm Send a Private Message to eaglesdare Add eaglesdare as a friend

Can't even say the word pedophile anymore! The lefty woke lot are calling it "minor attracted person"

Which is disgusting, evil and disgraceful! Soon the age of "consent" will also be lowered so the "Pedophiles" won't be doing anything illegal!

Sickening the times we live in!

 

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 07 Feb 23 10.55pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

i know nothing about legal process. However, it strikes me that prosecutions happen on a case-by-case. And get chucked out of court if the evidence isnt strong enough.

surely if you are dealing with a Marlon King/Ian Huntley type character.......then all their previous shady background MUST be taken into account ?

if a bloke has a ton of previous...then he's gotta be a nasty c..nt ?

and if the 'victim' has a ton of previous false-claims ? against different people. what does that tell you ?

Edited by PalazioVecchio (07 Feb 2023 11.07pm)

 


the 'Net-We-had' at the Etihad....again

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 07 Feb 23 11.01pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by becky

Literally, the only solution would be a written consent form with various boxes to be ticked as to precisely what is being consented to (straight sex, anal, bondage etc. etc) signed by both parties before or during foreplay.

Would put rather a damper on the whole business in my opinion,but it would solve the problem.

Are you not using that? I have a pro forma if you want to borrow it. It’s a b*gger when your pen runs out of ink though

 

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