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March 28 2024 5.31pm

Vieira vs Roy V2.0

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View doombear's Profile doombear Flag Too far from Selhurst Park 28 Apr 23 10.45pm Send a Private Message to doombear Add doombear as a friend

Originally posted by southnorwoodhill

Let's see how the 5 remaining games turn out. We were 12th under PV after a tough set of fixtures, we remain 12th under RH, after an arguably easier set of games. Everyone seems to have forgotten the absolutely dire two final seasons of Roy's first stint in charge, totally abysmal and as bad as anything served up by PV this season.

Edited by southnorwoodhill (28 Apr 2023 8.41pm)


No I haven't forgotten what was served up in Roy's final 2 years but perhaps you have forgotten what a poor squad we had during those 2 years.

As for still being 12th:
1. When PV went we were a massive TEN points behind 11th spot - we are now just 2 points behind.
2. During Roy's current tenure only 4 teams have collected more points than Palace - Citeh, Newcastle, Villa and Liverpool.

Finally, I shall be happy to see Roy ride off into the sunset when this season is over to be replaced by a younger but experienced manager.

 

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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 30 Apr 23 12.55pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

I was one of the first to criticise Roy and Ray for the turgid football played in the last 2 years of Roy’s previous tenure, it really was a hard watch.This time around it’s like they are a different management team, there is no comparison in performance except for perhaps his first season with us.

Having acknowledged that I’ve been wracking my brain to come up with the reason as to why the same manager can have two entirely different styles of play. The easy answer is of course the personnel however I don’t subscribe to the fact that our players were so bad in the last two seasons of his first stint that we needed to play the way we did.

If you looked at a comparison of that team and the team yesterday, then back then we had Wilf and Townsend out wide and now we have Wilf and Olise. We had Milivojevic, Schlupp, Kouyate and McArthur in midfield, now we have Milivojevic, Schlupp, Doucoure and Eze. In neither team did we have dynamic goal scoring strikers.

In reality there is very little difference between the teams, so maybe you have to look a bit harder at the reason for the difference in play and the only conclusion I could draw is by looking at Roy’s first season when he had Loftus Cheek and now when we have Eze, both similar sorts of players who can step up through the midfield and find the forward players. I wouldn’t say they are identical but they perform the same function.

I then wondered whether one player can have such a fundamental impact on a team and the only conclusion from team performances and results was yes.

For some reason Vieira wasn’t keen on Eze, probably because he couldn’t perform in a deep lying midfield role which we as fans know is is not where his strengths really are.

I do think therefore that the fundamental difference between Roy’s teams that play ultra defensive and those which play with attacking flair is having a midfielder or two that can drive at the opposition and link up play with the forwards. I would also say that Anderson has probably the best distribution of any centre half we have had which makes a difference.

I still haven’t seen this team under Roy play a top 8 team and so it’s difficult to make a judgment call on whether we have totally turned the corner but the signs are extremely promising. A Roy and Ray combination that play this style of football is no longer an issue for me, provided of course he tightens up on set piece defending.

Not sure if this rings true with anyone else, I’d welcome your thoughts.

 

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View SwordFish's Profile SwordFish Flag Peasmarsh,East Sussex 30 Apr 23 1.06pm Send a Private Message to SwordFish Add SwordFish as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

I was one of the first to criticise Roy and Ray for the turgid football played in the last 2 years of Roy’s previous tenure, it really was a hard watch.This time around it’s like they are a different management team, there is no comparison in performance except for perhaps his first season with us.

Having acknowledged that I’ve been wracking my brain to come up with the reason as to why the same manager can have two entirely different styles of play. The easy answer is of course the personnel however I don’t subscribe to the fact that our players were so bad in the last two seasons of his first stint that we needed to play the way we did.

If you looked at a comparison of that team and the team yesterday, then back then we had Wilf and Townsend out wide and now we have Wilf and Olise. We had Milivojevic, Schlupp, Kouyate and McArthur in midfield, now we have Milivojevic, Schlupp, Doucoure and Eze. In neither team did we have dynamic goal scoring strikers.

In reality there is very little difference between the teams, so maybe you have to look a bit harder at the reason for the difference in play and the only conclusion I could draw is by looking at Roy’s first season when he had Loftus Cheek and now when we have Eze, both similar sorts of players who can step up through the midfield and find the forward players. I wouldn’t say they are identical but they perform the same function.

I then wondered whether one player can have such a fundamental impact on a team and the only conclusion from team performances and results was yes.

For some reason Vieira wasn’t keen on Eze, probably because he couldn’t perform in a deep lying midfield role which we as fans know is is not where his strengths really are.

I do think therefore that the fundamental difference between Roy’s teams that play ultra defensive and those which play with attacking flair is having a midfielder or two that can drive at the opposition and link up play with the forwards. I would also say that Anderson has probably the best distribution of any centre half we have had which makes a difference.

I still haven’t seen this team under Roy play a top 8 team and so it’s difficult to make a judgment call on whether we have totally turned the corner but the signs are extremely promising. A Roy and Ray combination that play this style of football is no longer an issue for me, provided of course he tightens up on set piece defending.

Not sure if this rings true with anyone else, I’d welcome your thoughts.

It’s a good post , but I will definitely tell you it’s not just about the attack , guehi and Anderson at the back along with docoure in midfield allow our flare players to go at the opposition , we didn’t have that last time under Roy and had to protect the defence , we don’t have to now ,

 


“This is a crisis, a large crisis.... in fact if you have a moment, it’s a 12 storey crisis, magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24 hour portage , and an enormous sign on the roof saying “This , is a large crisis” - Edmund Blackadder

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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 30 Apr 23 1.16pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by SwordFish

It’s a good post , but I will definitely tell you it’s not just about the attack , guehi and Anderson at the back along with docoure in midfield allow our flare players to go at the opposition , we didn’t have that last time under Roy and had to protect the defence , we don’t have to now ,

I was going to mention the defence but we had PVA and AWB along with Cahill, Dann in the middle so with the exception of Andersen’s passing I saw no advantage of that group Vs the present group in terms of attacking and that’s the fundamental difference in the two styles that I’m trying to resolve. Certainly from an attacking point of view you would have said the two old full backs were far more attacking than the two we have now.

 

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View PZ Eagle's Profile PZ Eagle Flag Penzance 30 Apr 23 1.20pm Send a Private Message to PZ Eagle Add PZ Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

I was one of the first to criticise Roy and Ray for the turgid football played in the last 2 years of Roy’s previous tenure, it really was a hard watch.This time around it’s like they are a different management team, there is no comparison in performance except for perhaps his first season with us.

Having acknowledged that I’ve been wracking my brain to come up with the reason as to why the same manager can have two entirely different styles of play. The easy answer is of course the personnel however I don’t subscribe to the fact that our players were so bad in the last two seasons of his first stint that we needed to play the way we did.

If you looked at a comparison of that team and the team yesterday, then back then we had Wilf and Townsend out wide and now we have Wilf and Olise. We had Milivojevic, Schlupp, Kouyate and McArthur in midfield, now we have Milivojevic, Schlupp, Doucoure and Eze. In neither team did we have dynamic goal scoring strikers.

In reality there is very little difference between the teams, so maybe you have to look a bit harder at the reason for the difference in play and the only conclusion I could draw is by looking at Roy’s first season when he had Loftus Cheek and now when we have Eze, both similar sorts of players who can step up through the midfield and find the forward players. I wouldn’t say they are identical but they perform the same function.

I then wondered whether one player can have such a fundamental impact on a team and the only conclusion from team performances and results was yes.

For some reason Vieira wasn’t keen on Eze, probably because he couldn’t perform in a deep lying midfield role which we as fans know is is not where his strengths really are.

I do think therefore that the fundamental difference between Roy’s teams that play ultra defensive and those which play with attacking flair is having a midfielder or two that can drive at the opposition and link up play with the forwards. I would also say that Anderson has probably the best distribution of any centre half we have had which makes a difference.

I still haven’t seen this team under Roy play a top 8 team and so it’s difficult to make a judgment call on whether we have totally turned the corner but the signs are extremely promising. A Roy and Ray combination that play this style of football is no longer an issue for me, provided of course he tightens up on set piece defending.

Not sure if this rings true with anyone else, I’d welcome your thoughts.

I agree with your point that we have not played a top eight team with Roy & Ray but as this is a Roy v Viera thread and certain pundits have stated that we would have been safe with Viera because we are only playing teams below us in the table. Under Viera did we not lose to Everton 0-3, Notthm Forest 0-1, Leicester a draw 0=0 ad a Cup defeat at home to Southampton 1- 2.

 


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View SwordFish's Profile SwordFish Flag Peasmarsh,East Sussex 30 Apr 23 1.21pm Send a Private Message to SwordFish Add SwordFish as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

I was going to mention the defence but we had PVA and AWB along with Cahill, Dann in the middle so with the exception of Andersen’s passing I saw no advantage of that group Vs the present group in terms of attacking and that’s the fundamental difference in the two styles that I’m trying to resolve. Certainly from an attacking point of view you would have said the two old full backs were far more attacking than the two we have now.

Cahill and Dann where at the end of their careers and needed protection from midfield and attack tbf , hence why ayew is a lot more further forward now as not having to protect the defence

 


“This is a crisis, a large crisis.... in fact if you have a moment, it’s a 12 storey crisis, magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24 hour portage , and an enormous sign on the roof saying “This , is a large crisis” - Edmund Blackadder

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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 30 Apr 23 1.34pm Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by PZ Eagle

I agree with your point that we have not played a top eight team with Roy & Ray but as this is a Roy v Viera thread and certain pundits have stated that we would have been safe with Viera because we are only playing teams below us in the table. Under Viera did we not lose to Everton 0-3, Notthm Forest 0-1, Leicester a draw 0=0 ad a Cup defeat at home to Southampton 1- 2.

We would never know and as he is gone I’m not really interested in the semantics of whether he might or might not have done. I’m more concerned about whether Roy’s approach will work against those above us so I wait for the Spurs and to a lesser extent the Fulham match to see how we perform.

 

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View doombear's Profile doombear Flag Too far from Selhurst Park 30 Apr 23 3.11pm Send a Private Message to doombear Add doombear as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

We would never know and as he is gone I’m not really interested in the semantics of whether he might or might not have done. I’m more concerned about whether Roy’s approach will work against those above us so I wait for the Spurs and to a lesser extent the Fulham match to see how we perform.


We clearly do need to see how we fare against Spurs and Fulham before making further judgement on the matter. However, Roy is NOT rigid in his style of play. Look back at some of his time at Fulham and West Brom. It's very much about the personnel available and how best to use them.

In you longer post you mention we had the likes of Townsend, PvA, Luka etc., all players past their best during Roy's final two years. Likewise Dann and Cahill were limited in the scope of their play when compared with Andersen and Guehi. In our recent few games, the inclusion of Johnstone has added a whole new dimension with his array of options when distributing the ball. This was most noticeable in the two most recent games when his kicks more often than not found a Palace player. Having a keeper who can distribute the ball accurately is a big plus. Guaita, for all his shot stopping isn't in the same category.

IMHO the current squad is significantly superior to one that Roy had to use in his final two years - something that he himself has acknowledged in press conferences and he should know.

 

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View taylors lovechild's Profile taylors lovechild Flag 30 Apr 23 3.18pm Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

Originally posted by doombear


We clearly do need to see how we fare against Spurs and Fulham before making further judgement on the matter. However, Roy is NOT rigid in his style of play. Look back at some of his time at Fulham and West Brom. It's very much about the personnel available and how best to use them.

In you longer post you mention we had the likes of Townsend, PvA, Luka etc., all players past their best during Roy's final two years. Likewise Dann and Cahill were limited in the scope of their play when compared with Andersen and Guehi. In our recent few games, the inclusion of Johnstone has added a whole new dimension with his array of options when distributing the ball. This was most noticeable in the two most recent games when his kicks more often than not found a Palace player. Having a keeper who can distribute the ball accurately is a big plus. Guaita, for all his shot stopping isn't in the same category.

IMHO the current squad is significantly superior to one that Roy had to use in his final two years - something that he himself has acknowledged in press conferences and he should know.

Our centre-backs were a big issue in Roy's final season, but Andros was clearly held back by Roy. He went to Everton and in his first season blossomed and he credited it that with not being asked to defend so much. My worry is Roy might do similar to Olise. Similarly, Zaha also publicly made fun about Roy's desire to make everyone defend. Hopefully if Roy does stay on we will find that was just because he didn't trust our defence. He did state yesterday that the squad is much better than it was when he was last in charge, which perhaps means he might trust them more to play football.

 

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View Glazier#1's Profile Glazier#1 Flag 30 Apr 23 3.37pm Send a Private Message to Glazier#1 Add Glazier#1 as a friend

Originally posted by ambrose7

The 'old Roy' was rotating whichever of his 35 year old centre backs were fit alongside a central midfielder... He had Ayew, Riedewald and Luka in his top 7 appearance makers in his last season.

Some of it was turgid but he played the way that was sensible with the team he had.

Absolutley.

I think Mr Hodgson has been much mailgned.

People latch onto the phrase 'Royball' and it sticks like s*** to a blanket no matter what the facts. An easy saying.

The truth is, Pullis saved us and was told "We want you to stay but you won't have any money" - walked.

Big Sam saved us and was told "We want you to stay but you won't have any money" - walked.

Only Roy, when told the same thing had the cohones to take the job on and make do, basically, with the squad he had.

He's forgotten more than most managers have ever learnt and, what's more is a Palace fan and a true gentleman, not given to headline and self advertisement like some we could mention.

Edited by Glazier#1 (30 Apr 2023 3.37pm)

Edited by Glazier#1 (30 Apr 2023 3.38pm)

 

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View Glazier#1's Profile Glazier#1 Flag 30 Apr 23 3.41pm Send a Private Message to Glazier#1 Add Glazier#1 as a friend


Another thing:

How come, in all his months as manager, did PV never even try Ebs and Michael on the same flank?

Why did he not realise that Schluppy is a left sided player and that Ayew, too, can be deployed effectively on the left.

Tbh, I thought they sacked PV too soon, yet, paradoxically, thought me Hodgson was the cast iron replacement (til the end of the season)

 

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View Lanzo-Ad's Profile Lanzo-Ad Flag Lanzarote 30 Apr 23 4.11pm Send a Private Message to Lanzo-Ad Add Lanzo-Ad as a friend

Can’t everybody get it into their head that Roy is a class manager and Patrick was awful, even the players thought he was. FFS

 


“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn

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