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View becky's Profile becky Flag over the moon 23 May 17 10.05am Send a Private Message to becky Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add becky as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Mainstream Islam does need reform. Islamic reformers have been saying this for a long time. They are regularly attacked for it. Attacks like this are from an extremist section from within that religion and we need to be more determined than ever in tacking them.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 May 2017 9.07am)

Therein lies the problem, Stirling. I totally agree with what you say, but for those who follow Islam it cannot be reformed - after several earlier revisions the prophet Mohammed stated that the last Koran was the final version and it was the word of Allah that no other Koran could be written. Therefore it 'cannot' be revised or reformed. I fear those who try have a long, hard and troubled road ahead of them.

 


A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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croydon proud Flag Any european country i fancy! 23 May 17 10.18am

Originally posted by bubble wrap

Very sad news. Was in Manchester Sunday for the football and it was heaving with people and not just for the football the high street was full of shoppers. This guy could have blown himself up anywhere and caused as many fatalaties if not more. The fact he targeted a venue full of mainly children and teenagers is all the more sickening.

yeah, could have just as easily stood in middle of the crowd sunday and done the same thing, there but for the grace of god etc,,,,

 

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View Mr_Gristle's Profile Mr_Gristle Flag In the land of Whelk Eaters 23 May 17 10.20am Send a Private Message to Mr_Gristle Add Mr_Gristle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well your last sentence shows that you aren't only angry but completely wrong.

He doesn't wish death on people. I think your anger is misdirected.


Edited by Stirlingsays (23 May 2017 9.46am)

I'm sure he doesn't wish death to innocents Stirling, I agree.

Perhaps I should have used the word C**t instead of hate-monger.

Edited by Mr_Gristle (23 May 2017 10.21am)

 


Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

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View Mr_Gristle's Profile Mr_Gristle Flag In the land of Whelk Eaters 23 May 17 10.20am Send a Private Message to Mr_Gristle Add Mr_Gristle as a friend

.

Edited by Mr_Gristle (23 May 2017 10.21am)

 


Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 23 May 17 10.21am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by becky

Therein lies the problem, Stirling. I totally agree with what you say, but for those who follow Islam it cannot be reformed - after several earlier revisions the prophet Mohammed stated that the last Koran was the final version and it was the word of Allah that no other Koran could be written. Therefore it 'cannot' be revised or reformed. I fear those who try have a long, hard and troubled road ahead of them.

Best reform for all religions would be to just wake up, pack up their bags and admit there is no god and just fvck off.

But as that isn't going to happen i say live and let live to those who have a peaceful God, and not a vengeful one, in their spiritual minds. Plenty of sects within all the three major religions do so don't feel anyone has the right to tell them to 'reform'.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 23 May 17 10.36am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by becky

Therein lies the problem, Stirling. I totally agree with what you say, but for those who follow Islam it cannot be reformed - after several earlier revisions the prophet Mohammed stated that the last Koran was the final version and it was the word of Allah that no other Koran could be written. Therefore it 'cannot' be revised or reformed. I fear those who try have a long, hard and troubled road ahead of them.

You are totally correct of course. It is a massive difference between the mainstream versions of other religions and it's essentially why the problem in Islam is so significant....despite some who are ignorant or who just try to deceive by saying that the problem is tiny.

There is one religious book that I know of that is more violent than the Qu'ran and that's the Toran. But the mainstream, view in Judaism isn't that every word is dictated by God but that their book is 'inspired' by him.....'God' written through man as it were.

So mainstream Jews can reject or interpret the violent sections much more easily than mainstream Muslims can. In fact most followers of most religions have never read their book(s) and take its meanings from religious leaders....leaders who often aren't very honest about what lies within the book.

What is or isn't the correct interpretation isn't the point. The 'no real scotsman' argument is a false path. All that matters is the end result of how popular the different interpretations are. The messages that can be taken from the books does make a difference but the culture and history of individual nations is an even bigger factor....That determines how the messages are used. Essentially worldwide around 15 percent of Muslims vote for parties that would enact some version of Sharia. Here I should imagine the percent is less...probably under ten but essentially we still have a significant problem.

Islamic reformers like Maajid Nawaz push for secular Islam and assimilation. He sees the failure of multiculturalism for his people and wants the successes of assimilation and secularization that has happened for the Jewish peoples. I agree with him and support him....but he isn't supported by most of the left and is mostly just supported by the right....Which, in a tragic sense is amusing. The progressives are all for protecting minorities and go to great lengths and cost to do it....But defending minorities within minorities...Well, they are far more silent on that.

There they have their excuse of cultural relativism. I see them as prolonging the problem and hence allowing it to worsen.... with the best of intentions of course but the result is the same regardless.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 23 May 17 10.44am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Kermit8

Best reform for all religions would be to just wake up, pack up their bags and admit there is no god and just fvck off.

But as that isn't going to happen i say live and let live to those who have a peaceful God, and not a vengeful one, in their spiritual minds. Plenty of sects within all the three major religions do so don't feel anyone has the right to tell them to 'reform'.

Yep, that's what you get from your Kermies of the world.

No reform required.

Completely ignoring the reality that the mainstream interpretations of both Judaism and Christianity did in fact 'reform'.

I wonder how much money from security budgets goes on watching problamatical Jewish or Christian/Sikn/Hindu groups and so on.

The Kermies of the world may have good intentions but I do feel that they deserve criticism.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Online Flag 23 May 17 10.54am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

I'm sure he doesn't wish death to innocents Stirling, I agree.

Perhaps I should have used the word C**t instead of hate-monger.

Edited by Mr_Gristle (23 May 2017 10.21am)

I think many people have used that word in regards to Piers for plenty of different reasons.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Kermit8's Profile Kermit8 Flag Hevon 23 May 17 10.57am Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yep, that's what you get from your Kermies of the world.

No reform required.

Completely ignoring the reality that the mainstream interpretations of both Judaism and Christianity did in fact 'reform'.

I wonder how much money from security budgets goes on watching problamatical Jewish or Christian/Sikn/Hindu groups and so on.

The Kermies of the world may have good intentions but I do feel that they deserve criticism.

Mainstream Islam encompasses a whole swathe of differing groups who have no interest in bombing you or taking over your civilisation or harming you or your country in any way whatsoever because their God is not an angry God so why you are so bothered by them is a mystery.

They will also evolve naturally over the decades/centuries as modernity catches up with them but, in the meantime, should you not be concentrating on those who do wish us harm?Reforming the crap out of them by all means possible rather than focusing on innocents?

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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View serial thriller's Profile serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 23 May 17 11.06am Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

First and foremost, a tragic day for all those affected.

On the point of Religious Fundamentalism, I disagree that Islam is unique as a world religion atm. Around 30% of Americans are Evangelicals, who believe the Biblenis thenliteral word of God, that Jesus will be reborn in theirnlifetime and that America should 'spread' God's message. Evangelicals are the fastest growing segment of the church globally.

That is a group from which numerous mass murderers, war mongers and race hate groups have stemmed from, not just recently, but for well over a hundred years. The emergence of global Islamic terrorism is fairly recent, probably dating to the Gulf war and formation of Hezbollah. To tackle it, we have to stop leaving countries like Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Yemen and Iraq in anarchy.

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 23 May 17 11.17am

Originally posted by Kermit8

Mainstream Islam encompasses a whole swathe of differing groups who have no interest in bombing you or taking over your civilisation or harming you or your country in any way whatsoever because their God is not an angry God so why you are so bothered by them is a mystery.

They will also evolve naturally over the decades/centuries as modernity catches up with them but, in the meantime, should you not be concentrating on those who do wish us harm?Reforming the crap out of them by all means possible rather than focusing on innocents?

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Quran, chapter 9(towbah),verse 29

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View topcat's Profile topcat Flag Holmesdale / Surbiton 23 May 17 11.34am Send a Private Message to topcat Add topcat as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

Less than 12 hours after the event and nobbers on here trying to politically point score.
Shame on you.

Originally posted by dannyh

For once I agree with Comrade Gusset, can you please put your pathetic political point scoring on hold until at least the parents have buried their children who just went for a night out.

Get a f***in Grip.

Completely agree with both of you.

 


It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

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