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We can't progress because we won't let it happen

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View You What's Profile You What Flag se25 15 Aug 17 8.37pm Send a Private Message to You What Add You What as a friend

Originally posted by Mstrobez

After an extremely poor result and performance I'm gonna put an opinion out that I know will prove unpopular but here goes.

In England, we delude ourselves senseless that we have the best league in the world. We go on about how much harder it is in england in comparison to Spain and Germany but our top teams never compete in Europe. We constantly talk down a possession based style of play, despite the fact that the best teams in the world play with this style and produce some of the most entertaining and successful teams and players in the world.

A new manager comes to the premier league, say a Pep or Van Gaal and instantly everyone calls them out to fail because "it doesn't work in the premier league". And the minute there is a bad result, the media and the fans are on progressive type managers like a pack of wolves with the "I told you so's" "you ain't in Spain/Holland/Germany/Italy anymore pal" etc etc.

No one ever stops to see the bigger picture, everyone wants instant results and success, regardless of longevity. Regardless of building anything in the long term. Regardless of whether or not overall they could build a more successful team that actually wins consistently or continentally. It's all now now now. The consequence of this is teams like Chelsea, playing a s***ty brand of football, winning the league and then the next season not even coming close to doing anything, getting knocked out by a European giant in the champions league and sacking Conte.

This is the epitome of what I saw at Selhurst today. There has been negativity around trying a new approach from the minute it was brought up. Every time we tried to play out from the back, the crowd groaned. Every time Hennessey or Dann or Riedewald didn't hoof the ball out, the crowd groaned. Ironically, when they did then hoof it out, the crowd also groaned. I think as fans we massively underestimate the amount it undermines the team and quite frankly one game in to the season, I think it was utterly pathetic.

The reason we won't progress is because of this attitude, we cannot improve without giving it a chance. Its funny how we bang on about "OH NOT A FAN OF THIS TIPPY TAPPY NONSENSE" yet completely ignore the fact that the newly promoted side who tanked us today are a team who've worked on a progressive type system for the past year. They're no hoof ball merchants, they're patient in possession, tactically sound and they play as a team.

There were many negatives in today's performance, that goes without saying. I have my own reservations about De Boer. We looked defensively all over the place and god forbid we sustain any injuries because barring Cabaye that would've been pretty much a fully fit team we put out today. But unless we try and get better, unless we adapt to the modern game, we will stagnate and it will inevitably lead to relegation because there are only so many Big Sams and Pulises knocking about and we've used up those 2 life lines already.

I predict the media will inevitably already have De Boer as a target and it would seem the fans have already passed judgement and deemed this a failed experiment. This will probably lead to a half hearted approach to our new style at the fear of being ruined by the press and booed every time we evade Hennessey hitting and hoping for the best. I've got my tin hat firmly on for this one and I will make a speedy exit before I undoubtedly get destroyed by many on here but this is my opinion about the Premier league in general. And it's one I've had for years, I don't buy the media nonsense pushed down our throat in this country about how amazingly excellent our league is.
Watch how one of the European giants play on a big champions league night, that's the best football in the world in my opinion, not this counter attacking "let's be avin ya" 80s type s*** that is common in the premier league.

B*llocks

 

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View You What's Profile You What Flag se25 15 Aug 17 9.04pm Send a Private Message to You What Add You What as a friend

Originally posted by DutchEagleJohan

I appreciate the thoroughness of your message however would like to offer you an alternative point of view. Perhaps even a bit of a qualified alternative point of view as I was a season ticket holder at the great Ajax mid nineties and a regular visitor of Ajax also under the Boer.

The main reason why the money floods in the English game is the attitude you seem to think rather derogatory about. Directness, attacking in principle, lots of things happening in the box. I think that is what brings worldwide TV money in the game. Now I will not say we were brilliant to watch under Allerdyce but in principle there is nothing wrong or not entertaining with a direct style.

You mention Guardiola and van Gaal. The first is indeed a prime example of system over everything. he now has to spent a s***load of money to try and repeat what he did at Barcelona and Bayern but any comparison with us is non existent as they are in a different league altogether. Van Gaal I would rate as tactically very very strong, he almost got us in the World cup final with a very average squad and to be honest very defensive football. Yet at Man Utd he made exactly the mistake that I am worried FdB is also making right now: putting system over squad and reality not taking into consideration what the crowd wants and be arrogant and know it all about it.

And you may think its appropriate to call a groaning crowd pathetic but sorry to say that I may well have been one of the groaners. Maybe you should allow people to have there own preference of style and not by default assume a new system will bring superior football and entertainment. I come across to England not to see a possession based style of football that leads to no treat, no action in the box and defenders playing it to each other. I have seen so much of this in the Amsterdam Arena that it may just be too much effort to travel across for. And yes, I feel strongly about it and will ask the question: do we really get more entertainment from a different style? And would we really think, at the moment we are a club that can move up the table into European positions? Tweak things yes, try things out fine, but the attitude of "a new system is there to be implied, whatever" is not something I will buy.

Also I would think it is rather odd you call the Chelsea style of football of last season s***ty, yet this is exactly the style FdB wants to introduce. What furthermore, strangely so, has gone completely under the radar is that FdB never ever played this system at Ajax. That was simply a 4 man defense, with 3 in midfield and yes, 2 wingers and central attacking player upfront. Something I would hope he would soon settle for with us.

Edited by DutchEagleJohan (14 Aug 2017 5.45pm)

Edited by DutchEagleJohan (14 Aug 2017 5.46pm)


Excellent post. Best so far this season.


Edited by You What (15 Aug 2017 9.05pm)

 

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View Dangermouse's Profile Dangermouse Flag Hastings 15 Aug 17 9.09pm Send a Private Message to Dangermouse Add Dangermouse as a friend

Originally posted by Aray

Bournemouth play possession football.

So do Swansea and Huddersfield.

 


That's Life
And as funny as it may seem
Some people get their kicks stompin' on a Dream.
KEEP THE FAITH!!!!!

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View ambrose7's Profile ambrose7 Flag Croydon 15 Aug 17 9.36pm Send a Private Message to ambrose7 Add ambrose7 as a friend

Our last season in the Championship, Freedman introduced a new style with us. We looked uncomfortable and started off with a pre-season defeat at Welling United, before losing our first 3 games included a 4-1 drubbing at Bristol City, plus a 4-1 at Preston in the cup. We were bottom of the league by the end of August.

We signed a couple of players who suited the system (Delaney, Bolasie, Moritz), went 14 games unbeaten and ended up promoted.

Let's wait until the end of the window and see who we get in. This time last year, we still had Bolasie and didn't have Benteke.

 


26th January 2010 - Enter Administration
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View Mstrobez's Profile Mstrobez Flag 15 Aug 17 10.46pm Send a Private Message to Mstrobez Add Mstrobez as a friend

Originally posted by You What

B*llocks

Great contribution.

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

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View majorkaios's Profile majorkaios Flag Trowbridge, Wilts 15 Aug 17 11.25pm Send a Private Message to majorkaios Add majorkaios as a friend

Originally posted by Sansbup

3:4:3 = relegation
4:3:3 = survival

Your choice.

Edited by Sansbup (12 Aug 2017 6.45pm)

Let's AGREE TO DISAGREE

3:4:3 = survival, WITH A GROWING AND DESIREABLE ACADEMY

4:3:3 = possible survival, but eventual Bankcrupsy as we won't afford much more than hoof ball players.

COYP

 


School, SN.Juniors, SN High, Selhurst. 1st match 1972 CP 2 N. Utd 1. Thank you, John Jackson and Vince Hilair for brightening our darkest days. I moved to the west country in 1983. Always Proud and 'Glad All Over' to be a Palace Fan. ))

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 15 Aug 17 11.43pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by majorkaios

Let's AGREE TO DISAGREE

3:4:3 = survival, WITH A GROWING AND DESIREABLE ACADEMY

4:3:3 = possible survival, but eventual Bankcrupsy as we won't afford much more than hoof ball players.

COYP

So you can only grow an academy and do things prudently with 3-4-3? Are you absolutely sure?

Have you actually looked at the squad? Have you not noticed we have 3 excellent central midfielders in Luka, Cabaye and Loftus-Cheek and 3-4-3 only uses 2? Have you also not noticed we do not have a right wing back?

There is also 4-2-3-1. 4-1-4-1. 3-5-2.

 


COYP

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View batcountry's Profile batcountry Flag Melbourne 15 Aug 17 11.43pm Send a Private Message to batcountry Add batcountry as a friend

The big problem with "hoofball" is it doesn't commit opposition to making decisions they're uncomfortable with. If they know what's coming it gives defenders time to double team on the obvious target men. That's why Wilf usually has three defenders around him because they have nothing else to do. Also the distance of the passer from the target man means our cavalry arrives too late to support our more gifted players who become isolated.

 

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View ex hibitionist's Profile ex hibitionist Flag Hastings 16 Aug 17 12.08am Send a Private Message to ex hibitionist Add ex hibitionist as a friend

Originally posted by Part Time James

Hamburger

well observed sir, 3-4-3 is indeed hamburger-like with the extra width in midfield from the wing backs sandwiched by a necessarily narrower front and back three. I'll have mine with chips, a side salad and something fizzy.

 

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View Rachid Rachid Rachid's Profile Rachid Rachid Rachid Flag 16 Aug 17 12.09am Send a Private Message to Rachid Rachid Rachid Add Rachid Rachid Rachid as a friend

There was little hoofball under Allardyce. Eventually a team that worked hard off the ball and attacked with pace and (critically) was strong from set pieces. The wins against Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool weren't a fluke.

Under Pardew we had a team that fvcked about with the ball in its own third before being panicked into a hopeful boot up the pitch and was rubbish from set pieces.

 

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View bexleydave's Profile bexleydave Flag Barnehurst 16 Aug 17 5.51am Send a Private Message to bexleydave Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add bexleydave as a friend

Originally posted by batcountry

The big problem with "hoofball" is it doesn't commit opposition to making decisions they're uncomfortable with. If they know what's coming it gives defenders time to double team on the obvious target men. That's why Wilf usually has three defenders around him because they have nothing else to do. Also the distance of the passer from the target man means our cavalry arrives too late to support our more gifted players who become isolated.

If this were the case (and I don't agree we've ever played hoofball by the way) then with our new system why is Zaha still being double and triple marked?

 


Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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View Mstrobez's Profile Mstrobez Flag 16 Aug 17 7.21am Send a Private Message to Mstrobez Add Mstrobez as a friend

Originally posted by DutchEagleJohan

I appreciate the thoroughness of your message however would like to offer you an alternative point of view. Perhaps even a bit of a qualified alternative point of view as I was a season ticket holder at the great Ajax mid nineties and a regular visitor of Ajax also under the Boer.

The main reason why the money floods in the English game is the attitude you seem to think rather derogatory about. Directness, attacking in principle, lots of things happening in the box. I think that is what brings worldwide TV money in the game. Now I will not say we were brilliant to watch under Allerdyce but in principle there is nothing wrong or not entertaining with a direct style.

You mention Guardiola and van Gaal. The first is indeed a prime example of system over everything. he now has to spent a s***load of money to try and repeat what he did at Barcelona and Bayern but any comparison with us is non existent as they are in a different league altogether. Van Gaal I would rate as tactically very very strong, he almost got us in the World cup final with a very average squad and to be honest very defensive football. Yet at Man Utd he made exactly the mistake that I am worried FdB is also making right now: putting system over squad and reality not taking into consideration what the crowd wants and be arrogant and know it all about it.

And you may think its appropriate to call a groaning crowd pathetic but sorry to say that I may well have been one of the groaners. Maybe you should allow people to have there own preference of style and not by default assume a new system will bring superior football and entertainment. I come across to England not to see a possession based style of football that leads to no treat, no action in the box and defenders playing it to each other. I have seen so much of this in the Amsterdam Arena that it may just be too much effort to travel across for. And yes, I feel strongly about it and will ask the question: do we really get more entertainment from a different style? And would we really think, at the moment we are a club that can move up the table into European positions? Tweak things yes, try things out fine, but the attitude of "a new system is there to be implied, whatever" is not something I will buy.

Also I would think it is rather odd you call the Chelsea style of football of last season s***ty, yet this is exactly the style FdB wants to introduce. What furthermore, strangely so, has gone completely under the radar is that FdB never ever played this system at Ajax. That was simply a 4 man defense, with 3 in midfield and yes, 2 wingers and central attacking player upfront. Something I would hope he would soon settle for with us.

Edited by DutchEagleJohan (14 Aug 2017 5.45pm)

Edited by DutchEagleJohan (14 Aug 2017 5.46pm)

A very good post and alternative take from mine on what we’re doing and the premier league in general.

I suppose it’s a game of opinions and also what style you personally like watching. For me the Premier League used to be the best league in the world, by far, because it mixed the directness and high intensity that you speak of with flair, fantastic defending and some of the worlds best players. I don’t see that anymore and from what I can gather the Premier League is only the biggest from a commercial sense (and there’s no denying it is by far the biggest in this area), the quality of football at times from what are supposedly the best we have to offer is just so far away from bigger European clubs and there is no reason that should be the case with the type of money some of these teams have had at their disposal.

The majority of my mates and people I know prefer a fast paced, end to end, quick game and I think Monaco were possibly one of the best teams in Europe to watch last season with this type of style. But for me personally, and many call it boring, I’d rather watch a 2-1 tactical battle between 2 teams that are patient in possession, know how to dictate the pace and properly manage and understand a game over a 5-4 Liverpool Norwich where the defending is utterly atrocious and it’s just “you score we score”. To me that doesn’t give the Premier League the right to claim to be the best quality footballing league in the world, the Championship has been unpredictable and direct for decades but that doesn’t necessarily equal a higher quality of football at all. Germany’s a good example of a league with plenty of high quality direct and counter attacking teams so the style you speak of isn’t exclusive to the Premier League and it’s not necessarily just a tiki taka type team I’m talking about, I’m just highlighting the attitude in England we generally tend to have against any attempt to bring certain styles across and we deem it a failure before it is really even given a chance.

I hope Pep does well simply because I believe if City start dominating in England, then we will finally have a team that will seriously compete in Europe - for a long time we haven’t even been close. I think where you and I disagree is on the subject of teams winning things with a certain style (the Atletico’s and Juves of this world for example). My point is that the very best teams in the world consistently win and despite the fact that the stubbornness to adapt leads to spells of relative failure (take Barca at this moment in time), they’ve built something long term that means they will always recover. Of course they have money to spend on players such as Suarez and Neymar too, but relatively speaking they don’t blindly buy players in the way a Real Madrid or United do. The reason they win is because they have a philosophy, a belief in how the game should be played, a system that is 10x harder to simply suss than the others. This was the reason Pep was so highly regarded before he came to England. I remember Eider Gudjohnssen speaking about the difference between him and Mourinho and he basically said Mourinho would set up a team for each individual game they’d play whereas Pep believed if his system was followed to the T, there wouldn’t be many if any teams that would be able to stop them. He certainly got the better of Mourinho more times in Spain.

That’s the reason managers like him as you say “put system above anything else”. Because despite the fact they probably know it may cost them a few points iniitally and may stop an instant title for example - in the long run they believe they will build a better and more resilient club that is able to compete consistently. It's the same with giving young players a chance, sure they may cost you some points initially but they can also potentially be the best and most enjoyable investment a club can make.

Re Van Gaal - I remember when United were playing a possession based game in his second (or possibly third) season in charge. They were top of the league, but we decided as English fans and journalists that “no it’s not the United way”, “its boring”, “all they do is play sideways and backwards” ignoring the bigger picture as always. Fans started getting on his and the teams back, ex United players were in the press talking about how s*** it was to watch, the media were on him like a pack of hounds despite the fact that United were top because it was "boring". Inevitably, this lead to fans booing and groaning just like at Selhurst on Saturday and all of a sudden you could see players shying away from the ball, more reluctant to fully respect the managers system. They went to West Ham and you could instantly see the effect of all the media scrutiny about how you can and can’t play in the Premier League, and inevitably they started playing alot more direct etc. After the game what happened? The media complained that Van Gaal was playing too many long balls and interrogated him about the style of his play. Proof if you ever needed any that anyone who wants to bring a cultured approach to the league cannot win. Their form weirdly dropped from then on in and their style of play was pretty hard to identify for the rest of his time at United.

The point that I’m making above anything else is not to defend what de Boer may or may not be doing at Palace, not to say it will work and not to even say he will be the man to solidify us as a Premier League club. But you’re damn right that it irks me when fans moan and groan at players after 1 competitive game of football just becasue they are trying to play a way that the manager believes will bring us success, I heard fans doing this at 0-0. If we get to 10 games in and there is no sign of progress and we’re in all sorts of trouble then by all means SCREAM at Riedewald when he doesn’t play a long ball upto Benteke, but for now we need to get behind the team because regardless of the style you like, the one thing I know for sure and I think most would agree is that any system that is being attempted requires confidence above all else. Getting on the players back will do nothing but make them feel more under pressure in possession, less able to adapt to the style and less willing to play. Without the players being confident in the way they are playing and feeling backed by their own fans, you will never see long term success on the pitch.

This is what I’m trying to articulate, whether you agree that this is the right approach or not, by groaning every time a ball is played back to Hennessey you are literally already undermining the entire system before it’s even had a chance to prove flawed and we as fans will see it fail before it’s even been tried. I repeat, we should not underestimate the effect we have on the team as a whole.

I think in conclusion, with all this talk about European Giants etc. it’s worth me pointing out we are of course not Barcelona and I don’t ever expect us to even come close. But at some point we have to bring some form of an identity and tactical consistency to the club. Whether it’s Dutch possession or a more traditional English high intensity approach, this is not something that will be achieved over night, but if we are if we are serous about solidifying ourselves in the Premier League for the long term, it is in my opinion essential & getting on the players backs who are tasked with implementing the change of system, during their first game, at home, will never be anything but counter productive.


Edited by Mstrobez (16 Aug 2017 7.38am)

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

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