Gaza Massacre
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  Hrolf The Ganger  21 May 18 10.20pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The two state solution is dead. Killed off by an assassin and the fear of assassins. Here's my thoughts on the direction of travel.....though it might take a couple of decades....longer if the right in Israel are voted out. Israel is going to continue taking all of the West Bank and building settlements. Then when that's complete there will be a long period of making life even tougher and overtly encouraging the Gazan Palestinians to leave....Then after Israel has dotted the i's and T's it will invade Gaza on some pretext, either valid or invalid and kill or arrest everyone. That's going to be very bloody on both sides, especially Palestinians. Then I'd imagine the Palestinians will be kept in many large concentration camps until they are deported to an Arab country willing to have them. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the end game. Sounds familiar. 50 years later,Jews will be denying it ever happened.
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| Stirlingsays 21 May 18 10.42pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Sounds familiar. 50 years later,Jews will be denying it ever happened. Yep, but this is not the holocaust or anything like it. All the comparison's to national socialist policies, that I sometimes hear, are wildly hyperbolic. But it isn't fairness....but then again once Israel was created perhaps this was all inevitable. One way or another it was going to end in a bloodbath. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2018 10.45pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 22 May 18 6.02pm |
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It certainly does when the Neo Cons are pulling the puppet POTUS' strings. Bolton in particular is a very dangerous man.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 22 May 18 6.25pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The two state solution is dead. Killed off by an assassin and the fear of assassins. Here's my thoughts on the direction of travel.....though it might take a couple of decades....longer if the right in Israel are voted out. Israel is going to continue taking all of the West Bank and building settlements. Then when that's complete there will be a long period of making life even tougher and overtly encouraging the Gazan Palestinians to leave....Then after Israel has dotted the i's and T's it will invade Gaza on some pretext, either valid or invalid and kill or arrest everyone. That's going to be very bloody on both sides, especially Palestinians. Then I'd imagine the Palestinians will be kept in many large concentration camps until they are deported to an Arab country willing to have them. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the end game. Ok, I agree with a lot of this. Here's the question though... If you are a Palestinian, and you realise that your aggressors are unreasonable to your concerns, and that any time you have tried to raise them through democratic, diplomatic means they have been thrown in your face (see the PA in the West Bank now, or Arafat and Oslo), what would you do? Would you say that, even if it's far from desirable, terrorism is at least understandable as the only means of recognised resistance in trying to protect your homes, family and nation?
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 22 May 18 6.39pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Ok, I agree with a lot of this. Here's the question though... If you are a Palestinian, and you realise that your aggressors are unreasonable to your concerns, and that any time you have tried to raise them through democratic, diplomatic means they have been thrown in your face (see the PA in the West Bank now, or Arafat and Oslo), what would you do? Would you say that, even if it's far from desirable, terrorism is at least understandable as the only means of recognised resistance in trying to protect your homes, family and nation? Let's be honest. Palestine cannot win and Hamas should stop using people as cannon fodder. Israel is in danger of causing the biggest irony in history but the die is cast.
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 22 May 18 7.48pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Let's be honest. Palestine cannot win and Hamas should stop using people as cannon fodder. Israel is in danger of causing the biggest irony in history but the die is cast. Christ, not exactly the blitz spirit is it? Israel could very easily be forced to come to terms with a two state solution. The only thing that would have to happen is the US turning their backs on them. Without them vetoing Security Council resolutions on their behalf, funding enormous military campaigns and pumping money in to the Israeli society like they did in Apartheid SA Israel would soon have to come to terms with being a low-populationed mid-range power in the region and may then play ball.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 22 May 18 8.48pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Christ, not exactly the blitz spirit is it? Israel could very easily be forced to come to terms with a two state solution. The only thing that would have to happen is the US turning their backs on them. Without them vetoing Security Council resolutions on their behalf, funding enormous military campaigns and pumping money in to the Israeli society like they did in Apartheid SA Israel would soon have to come to terms with being a low-populationed mid-range power in the region and may then play ball. That is never going to happen though is it.
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| Stirlingsays 22 May 18 9.10pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Ok, I agree with a lot of this. Here's the question though... If you are a Palestinian, and you realise that your aggressors are unreasonable to your concerns, and that any time you have tried to raise them through democratic, diplomatic means they have been thrown in your face (see the PA in the West Bank now, or Arafat and Oslo), what would you do? Would you say that, even if it's far from desirable, terrorism is at least understandable as the only means of recognised resistance in trying to protect your homes, family and nation? It comes down to perspective. This kind of question can be asked of any nationalist facing an enemy. Do you fight for your country against an enemy or do you make it dependent upon the circumstances of the situation? Was it legitimate for the German soldier to fight for Germany led by Hitler. You have to consider two aspects. What does the soldier know about the Nazis and what is the consequence for their country if they didn't fight? The legitimate answer for the German soldier in my view was to fight for Germany as that is your country. However, conduct yourself as professionally as you can....ie don't involve yourself in war crimes (though any student of history knows that this in many instances was practically impossible and libel to get yourself a bullet from your own side). At the start of the war most Germans soldiers would not know of the final solution or how the SS would end up treating the Russians and citizens.....but after a while it would have been quite apparent what the score was. It's often remarked as to why German generals and the common soldier continued to fight for Hitler even after the war was obviously lost....1945 being the bloodiest year of the war. The answer is huge bribes for Generals at the top and bullets for thousands of dissenting or even lukewarm soldiers at the bottom. In 1945, I'd certainly advise the German soldier to fight the Russians but to surrender at the first realistic chance they had to the western allies. But of course, that is easy for me to say as I have the benefit of historical hindsight....still many chose that option. So in answer....the common Palestinian....like the common German soldier is fcuked.....fcuked by a totally corrupt regime at home and fcuked by an invader. My answer would be to get out while you can. Especially if you have kids because their is no future there. Move to the most culturally close country to you. But I'll never criticise somebody who chooses to fight for soil even if my allegiance isn't with his side. But they are going to lose. However, what any individual does in war is written in blood. As they say, the first causality of war is innocence. Sides have to be taken and I'm a westerner. But it isn't fairness or ethical.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 22 May 18 10.33pm |
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I just don't buy this fatalist perspective of history. The 20th century alone is full of examples of oppressed minorities fighting tor greater individual sovereignty and freedom and winning, be it against Empires or for racial, sexual or female empowerment. The issue i think with what you say stirling is it dismisses a reality which is that many Germans fought for the Nazis because they supported them to some degree, and the reason they turned to such an extreme - Versailles, enforced economic depravation and inneffective democratic government etc. - has to some extent been reproduced by Israel with the added bonus of military and civil occupation.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Stirlingsays 22 May 18 11.00pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Christ, not exactly the blitz spirit is it? Israel could very easily be forced to come to terms with a two state solution. The only thing that would have to happen is the US turning their backs on them. Without them vetoing Security Council resolutions on their behalf, funding enormous military campaigns and pumping money in to the Israeli society like they did in Apartheid SA Israel would soon have to come to terms with being a low-populationed mid-range power in the region and may then play ball. The US is a Israeli first country. Both the main parties are heavily funded by Jewish lobby groups. Not being pro Israeli and rising to a prominent position in the US is difficult. IQ wins.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 22 May 18 11.32pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
I just don't buy this fatalist perspective of history. The 20th century alone is full of examples of oppressed minorities fighting tor greater individual sovereignty and freedom and winning, be it against Empires or for racial, sexual or female empowerment. I think you object on 'feels' rather than 'reals' personally. The Buddhists have it right....by default life is suffering. You are very very very lucky to be born in a time and place where you have all these high minded ideas about rights. I think you forget at how those rights were won. A safe economically viable life wasn't enabled by shaking hands with people. It was won by force of arms as the west rubbed up against the wider world and by men drowning in mud on Europe's battlefields....though their descendants gave many of those freedoms away for free. Feminists and the beta males orbiting them are useless in the real big bad world. They are enabled by those willing to protect them for a living....and they are rarely actually feminists and beta males. You talk about, 'oppressed minorities fighting tor greater individual sovereignty and freedom and winning'. I don't agree that this is actually what happened. They were given these rights because the majority culture was willing to listen to argument over time. Look at 'oppressed minorities in the middle east' for example....hell anywhere outside of Europe and the Anglosphere.... the only rights gay people have is to hide or risk ruin or in the worst situations (which aren't rare) the right to hit the ground from a tall building. While I'm certainly a social libertarian rather than a conservative on the topics of personal freedoms I do think western societies have also suffered from the demise of duty and weakened from the lack of responsibility that 'anything goes' freedom on allows. So we probably differ on these topics....I would be highly surprised if we agreed on modern feminism for example. Originally posted by serial thriller
The issue i think with what you say stirling is it dismisses a reality which is that many Germans fought for the Nazis because they supported them to some degree, and the reason they turned to such an extreme - Versailles, enforced economic depravation and inneffective democratic government etc. - has to some extent been reproduced by Israel with the added bonus of military and civil occupation. The Nazis won thirty something of the vote. This was, as you know, at a time of extreme deprivation. Like I stated when you judge people you need to take in what they knew at the time. Hitler provided a national health service for Germans, free daycare for German children. He taxed the wealthy high and put the men to work. For the common German this was very different to starving in the streets. So like with most things there is a context. I doubt that anything other than the core of anti semitic Germans really had it in the the Jews. Without Hitler and a small core it is doubtful that the holocaust would have happened. As with all dictatorships, it was enabled because people take the course of self interest.....this isn't a criticism. This is human nature. Like I said, Generals received kick backs and the common soldier avoided the bullet from their own side. As for comparing the Nazis and Israel....It's a massive 'feels' statement. Sure, we all can probably see what the Israeli right want to do. But If Israel were actually Nazis, the Palestinians would last about a year. Edited by Stirlingsays (23 May 2018 1.45am)
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aquickgame2  Beni = summer,Caribbean = winter 23 May 18 9.02am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The two state solution is dead. Killed off by an assassin and the fear of assassins. Here's my thoughts on the direction of travel.....though it might take a couple of decades....longer if the right in Israel are voted out. Israel is going to continue taking all of the West Bank and building settlements. Then when that's complete there will be a long period of making life even tougher and overtly encouraging the Gazan Palestinians to leave....Then after Israel has dotted the i's and T's it will invade Gaza on some pretext, either valid or invalid and kill or arrest everyone. That's going to be very bloody on both sides, especially Palestinians. Then I'd imagine the Palestinians will be kept in many large concentration camps until they are deported to an Arab country willing to have them. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the end game. There isn't any,they don't want them either.
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